Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes
In article , harrogate3
wrote:

Forgive me Jim but I thought it was the other way around? Optimod and
whatever during rushhour (0730-0930 and 1700-1900 weekdays) but
uncompressed at other times. Que?

Well, the measurements I've made show clear level compression on R3 FM
during the day. e.g. during the lunchtime and afternoon programmes. It was
also quite audible when I listened to/recorded the afternoon repeat of the
'First Night' that went out between 2-4 the Monday following the First
Night.

I have not checked, and I don't listen at all times of day. However my
impression is that R3 use automated level compression on FM essentially all
day, and only remove it (perhaps) during the evening. It may be used to a
greater degree during 'drivetimes', though.

I have also had the impression that even in the evenings, they level
compress to some extent, but this may be more skill-controlled and hence
not so noticable or distracting.


I reckon that this is a bit of a difficult one for a broadcaster as they in
order to serve their audience have to take into account typical listening
conditions for the majority of people during the day and I'd bet that there
aren't that many serious listeners who sit down and listen to the audio
systems during the daytime hours, but there are a whole lot more who are in
car and have the tranny on for background stuff in the day, so who should they
serve for best effect?.

Of course what they ought do is make a very high bitrate and un-processed
source available on satellite for such serious users, and use compression on
DABble which doesn't matter anymore as its no longer a serious audio medium.

Even a small broadcaster like Radio Jackie in south London is capable of doing
this, they have a processed output and their "finesse" stream which is
directly off the desk!.

If they can manage that,, I'm sure auntie BBC can......

--
Tony Sayer

Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Well, the measurements I've made show clear level compression on R3 FM
during the day. e.g.

[snip]


I reckon that this is a bit of a difficult one for a broadcaster as they
in order to serve their audience have to take into account typical
listening conditions for the majority of people during the day and I'd
bet that there aren't that many serious listeners who sit down and
listen to the audio systems during the daytime hours, but there are a
whole lot more who are in car and have the tranny on for background
stuff in the day, so who should they serve for best effect?.

That was the purpose of including DRC in the DAB specifications. A recent
statemend I've had from the BBC claims they *do* use this on R3.

Alas, for DRC to have much value on DAB, the results with it disengaged
should be of a good enough quality to merit listening seriously...

Since there is no DRC on FM, the BBC used to choose *not* to compress. The
argument being that it was left to the listeners to decide how to listen.
Nothing to stop manufacturers selling car radios with level compressers.

Now they simply impose in on all. When you think about it, this is a
parallel to the way they have treated DAB listeners.

Of course what they ought do is make a very high bitrate and
un-processed source available on satellite for such serious users, and
use compression on DABble which doesn't matter anymore as its no longer
a serious audio medium.

The problem now is that - even if the BBC do currently offer higher
bitrates and no level compression via other broadcating chains (like DTTV)
- their behaviour gives no reason for confidence that this will continue.
Hence should I or anyone else spend money buying equipment to exploit this
only to risk it evaporating shortly afterwards?

The difficulty here is that the BBC are establishing a track record of
being 'unreliable' as well as showing no real concern for quality.

[N.B. Having problems with the HD on my computer, so there may be
a 'break in communcations' during the next day or so...]

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Friends of Radio 3
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Well, the measurements I've made show clear level compression on R3
FM during the day. e.g.

[snip]


I reckon that this is a bit of a difficult one for a broadcaster as
they in order to serve their audience have to take into account
typical listening conditions for the majority of people during the
day and I'd bet that there aren't that many serious listeners who
sit down and listen to the audio systems during the daytime hours,
but there are a whole lot more who are in car and have the tranny on
for background stuff in the day, so who should they serve for best
effect?.

That was the purpose of including DRC in the DAB specifications. A
recent statemend I've had from the BBC claims they *do* use this on
R3.

Alas, for DRC to have much value on DAB, the results with it
disengaged should be of a good enough quality to merit listening
seriously...

Since there is no DRC on FM, the BBC used to choose *not* to
compress. The argument being that it was left to the listeners to
decide how to listen. Nothing to stop manufacturers selling car
radios with level compressers.

Now they simply impose in on all. When you think about it, this is a
parallel to the way they have treated DAB listeners.


Complaining about DAB? Welcome to the club.....


Of course what they ought do is make a very high bitrate and
un-processed source available on satellite for such serious users,
and use compression on DABble which doesn't matter anymore as its no
longer a serious audio medium.

The problem now is that - even if the BBC do currently offer higher
bitrates and no level compression via other broadcating chains (like
DTTV) - their behaviour gives no reason for confidence that this will
continue.


A senior BBC Reception Advice engineer once said on the phone that he was
confident that they would never reduce the bit rates on satellite, and
although that's no guarantee that they won't (you will have a long wait
trying to get guarantees from BBC execs...) there just isn't any reason why
they would reduce the bit rates on satellite. They've got 231 Mbps of
capacity on satellite, and *all* of their radio stations only consume about
0.7% of that.

There is actually a very strong argument for them providing at least Radios
1-4 on satellite at 256 kbps, and they could very easily provide high bit
rates across the board if they wanted to.


Hence should I or anyone else spend money buying equipment
to exploit this only to risk it evaporating shortly afterwards?


Yes.


The difficulty here is that the BBC are establishing a track record of
being 'unreliable' as well as showing no real concern for quality.


The bit rates of BBC radio stations on digital satellite have never been
reduced to my knowledge, and nor are they likely to be reduced in future
because there's no reason for them to do so.

The only thing that has happened here is that the bit rate of Radio 3 has
been reduced and Radio 3 listeners are simply being treated similarly to
listeners of all the other radio stations (although R3's bit rate is still
higher than all the other BBC music stations).

The thing that has been established is that the DAB system is not up to the
job. You can argue all day that DAB can sound good, but if it doesn't then
it's a moot point. And to be honest, it was already established that DAB
wasn't up to the job, but some Radio 3 listeners such as yourself were
simply ignoring the fact that 98% of all stereo stations on DAB were being
broadcast at 128 kbps, and sound dire.


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview & DAB prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.php
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dab/dab_radios.php

Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes
In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes
[snip]

Presume you do have a directional aerial and a good grade, CT100 or
similar, of co-ax feeder?.

I use three different loft dipoles for the three different FM tuners in
daily use. They typically give around 600-800 microV at their downlead
ends. The cables vary but are all either CT100 or an equivalent in terms of
performance from the days before the term CT100 was used (so far as I
recall.) The cable runs are only about 3-4 metres in each case, and are
continuous from antenna to the plug in the RX socket.

FWIW yesterday I lugged the CT7000 around and checked the levels on each
antenna output. So the above are correct assuming the (old) calibration
for the tuner is OK.

Course your local TX might be re-transmiting what it receives if its an
RBR one 'tho if a main station it should be on PCM, and its very
possible that the BBC don't even know if theres a problem.

Which one was it again Jim?.

Forfar. I can't recall the ERP, but I think it isn't one of the higher
powers. However it gives higher levels here than the alternatives. The
problem I think is that although we are up a hill, the main parts of Fife
'behind' us are higher and tend to block signals from inland. We might get
more from the other transmitters if the topology were favourable. Alas,
Fife isn't the Fens... :-/

Yes its a main station and PCM fed at 17Kw mixed pol...

Perhaps a bit more directionality on the receiving aerials?. You might
be having some multipath perhaps...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/forfar.asp



TBH Having started thinking about this again I am starting to wonder if the
real problem is the CT7000. Although an excellent design, it is now
reaching its 30th birthday, and it suffers from poor internal contacts due
to the widespread use of tiny 'pin-socket' connectors between the internal
modules. It is about time I tried something else for the main hifi system.
Now I've started thinking about this, I haven't noticed so much in the way
of problems even on a Quad FM4 which - in principle - has nothing like as
good an RF performance as the CT7000...

Yes I had one for a short while once that was owned by Phil Swift of
Audiolab and that was a bit dodgy then and that was in the early 80's so
time wouldn't have helped;!..


It was IIRC a good RF performer and in comparison the FM 4 wasn't
anything that wonderful.


I noticed in a review in a recent mag that one tuner (Creek IIRC) reached
70dB SNR full-quieting with 400microV in, whereas the CT7000 needs about
800 microV for this.

They 'umble old Denon TU260 MK2 is remarkably good RF and otherwise.

I'd look around for a second-hand Audiolab T8000 on e-bay thats about as
good as an FM tuner gets or needs to be;!..


IIRC Angus Mckenzie, although enthusiastic about the
CT7000 thought that the front end gain/noise figure wasn't as good as
it could be, even years ago, but loved it for the excellent selectivity
and low distortion, etc.

The interference tends to go un-noticed with something like a string
quartet or piano recital, but can show up on proms.

Why do you think that then?..

Alas, the level
compression on FM I now find more noticable than some years ago.
partly due to it being more severe, partly I guess due to becoming
accustomed to other sources that don't have it. Thus in practice,
with orchestral music it is the level compression I find distracting
more often these days. DAB was much better in this respect.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other;(...


One of the things I welcomed about DAB as it has shown almost zero
interference effects here. Signal level about 12dB above the top of the
scale on the tuner.

Well thats what it was supposed to do eh?. I just wish they'd admit
T-DAB is bu**ered as a serious medium, and really do some upping of the
bit rates in Satellite!..



It does suffer from co channel as some on the south coast will tell you
'jus cos its dab doesn't mean its not interfereable with!...

I'd agree. However here it has shown no particular signs of the sound being
interfered with by anyone - apart from the BBC themselves! :-/

Quite....

Slainte,

Jim


--
Tony Sayer

Friends of Radio 3
 

The problem now is that - even if the BBC do currently offer higher
bitrates and no level compression via other broadcating chains (like DTTV)
- their behaviour gives no reason for confidence that this will continue.
Hence should I or anyone else spend money buying equipment to exploit this
only to risk it evaporating shortly afterwards?

The difficulty here is that the BBC are establishing a track record of
being 'unreliable' as well as showing no real concern for quality.

Nothing we don't know then;!...Auntie is a well dodgy old bird these days;(

[N.B. Having problems with the HD on my computer, so there may be
a 'break in communcations' during the next day or so...]
OK..

Slainte,

Jim


--
Tony Sayer

Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Forfar. I can't recall the ERP, but I think it isn't one of the higher
powers. However it gives higher levels here than the alternatives. The
problem I think is that although we are up a hill, the main parts of
Fife 'behind' us are higher and tend to block signals from inland. We
might get more from the other transmitters if the topology were
favourable. Alas, Fife isn't the Fens... :-/

Yes its a main station and PCM fed at 17Kw mixed pol...

Perhaps a bit more directionality on the receiving aerials?. You might
be having some multipath perhaps...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/forfar.asp

The CT7000 has a meter to display multipath. I've also checked with a
spectrum analyser in the distant past. There are no signs of any sigificant
level of multipath.

It may well be time for a 'new' tuner and/or a high-gain antenna on the
roof. However I am not certain, given the nature of the problems, how much
these will help. So I suppose I should also consider using either a
Freeview box or some form of satellite RX.



I noticed in a review in a recent mag that one tuner (Creek IIRC)
reached 70dB SNR full-quieting with 400microV in, whereas the CT7000
needs about 800 microV for this.

They 'umble old Denon TU260 MK2 is remarkably good RF and otherwise.

I'd look around for a second-hand Audiolab T8000 on e-bay thats about as
good as an FM tuner gets or needs to be;!..

I have been re-reading old info on tuners. :-)

Must admit to having mixed feelings about an 'Audiolab' one. I have now
given up on trying to fix the seriously-broken 8000A. The circuit diagram
from the net is incorrect in some details, and having spent some time
studying the actual circuit I must confess to having become less than
impressed.

I have therefore bought it for 20 quid to use as a 'breadboard' for making
up some new amp designs of my own. Saves having to build a chassis and a
PSU. :-)


IIRC Angus Mckenzie, although enthusiastic about the CT7000 thought
that the front end gain/noise figure wasn't as good as it could be,
even years ago, but loved it for the excellent selectivity and low
distortion, etc.

The interference tends to go un-noticed with something like a string
quartet or piano recital, but can show up on proms.

Why do you think that then?..

Modulation level. Quartets, etc, tend to be on the mid-day concerts. This
timing, combined with the dynamics of the music, mean they are simply
'louder' in modulation level terms than the quiet bits of an evening
orchestral concert.

We also seem to get more interference during the day than during the
evening. Although there is a tendency here for the RF level to droop during
the evenings.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes
In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Forfar. I can't recall the ERP, but I think it isn't one of the higher
powers. However it gives higher levels here than the alternatives. The
problem I think is that although we are up a hill, the main parts of
Fife 'behind' us are higher and tend to block signals from inland. We
might get more from the other transmitters if the topology were
favourable. Alas, Fife isn't the Fens... :-/

Yes its a main station and PCM fed at 17Kw mixed pol...

Perhaps a bit more directionality on the receiving aerials?. You might
be having some multipath perhaps...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/forfar.asp

The CT7000 has a meter to display multipath. I've also checked with a
spectrum analyser in the distant past. There are no signs of any sigificant
level of multipath.

It may well be time for a 'new' tuner and/or a high-gain antenna on the
roof. However I am not certain, given the nature of the problems, how much
these will help. So I suppose I should also consider using either a
Freeview box or some form of satellite RX.

I'd opt for an outside directional aerial and when you do that get the
aerial and get someone to put it up for you unless you can DIY.

a Triax 4 or 5 element can be had from www.cpc.co.uk don't rely on the
aerial rigger to supply an 'eff emm hairel they almost without exception
put up a Halo which is a waste of good metal!.

Freeview is well.. ok as far as 192K audio goes, but 256 K + on
satellite is where it ought be. Still for around a 100 squids you can
get some excellent audio from the other side of the channel:--)).




I noticed in a review in a recent mag that one tuner (Creek IIRC)
reached 70dB SNR full-quieting with 400microV in, whereas the CT7000
needs about 800 microV for this.

They 'umble old Denon TU260 MK2 is remarkably good RF and otherwise.

I'd look around for a second-hand Audiolab T8000 on e-bay thats about as
good as an FM tuner gets or needs to be;!..

I have been re-reading old info on tuners. :-)

Must admit to having mixed feelings about an 'Audiolab' one. I have now
given up on trying to fix the seriously-broken 8000A. The circuit diagram
from the net is incorrect in some details, and having spent some time
studying the actual circuit I must confess to having become less than
impressed.

Should have said!, one does know ones old employers still;)

No the T8000 is a damm fine tuner:)

I have therefore bought it for 20 quid to use as a 'breadboard' for making
up some new amp designs of my own. Saves having to build a chassis and a
PSU. :-)


*!....


IIRC Angus Mckenzie, although enthusiastic about the CT7000 thought
that the front end gain/noise figure wasn't as good as it could be,
even years ago, but loved it for the excellent selectivity and low
distortion, etc.

The interference tends to go un-noticed with something like a string
quartet or piano recital, but can show up on proms.

Why do you think that then?..

Modulation level. Quartets, etc, tend to be on the mid-day concerts. This
timing, combined with the dynamics of the music, mean they are simply
'louder' in modulation level terms than the quiet bits of an evening
orchestral concert.

Hummm... The old daytime Optimod by the sound of it..


We also seem to get more interference during the day than during the
evening. Although there is a tendency here for the RF level to droop during
the evenings.

Odd.. your not the other side of that river estuary?, firth of Tay or
whatever its called???

Slainte,

Jim


--
Tony Sayer

Friends of Radio 3
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Forfar. I can't recall the ERP, but I think it isn't one of the higher
powers. However it gives higher levels here than the alternatives. The
problem I think is that although we are up a hill, the main parts of
Fife 'behind' us are higher and tend to block signals from inland. We
might get more from the other transmitters if the topology were
favourable. Alas, Fife isn't the Fens... :-/

Yes its a main station and PCM fed at 17Kw mixed pol...

Perhaps a bit more directionality on the receiving aerials?. You might
be having some multipath perhaps...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/forfar.asp

The CT7000 has a meter to display multipath. I've also checked with a
spectrum analyser in the distant past. There are no signs of any
sigificant
level of multipath.

It may well be time for a 'new' tuner and/or a high-gain antenna on the
roof. However I am not certain, given the nature of the problems, how much
these will help. So I suppose I should also consider using either a
Freeview box or some form of satellite RX.


I don't seek to offer 'advice' here, but I would just mention that the
recent *much blogged* installation of a 4 element FM aerial here has ended
up with me ripping it off and using the mast and wiring for a TV aerial to
get a 'digital' signal strength on my PVRs that sticks out the side of the
TV screen! (I can see the top 2/3 lights of the Sandy Heath transmitter from
the top of my front path of an evening....)

Whether or not is was the downside of have an ultra-clear system I don't
know, but there was just too much going on with FM - roaring, distant
tweedling noises (birdy whistle?) and announcers clearly sounding like they
were in little cubicles!! As has been said elsewhere, the sound quality of
FM during the day wasn't much to shout about either!

But then, my *best* radio listening is done in the garage in the afternoons
(R3 Evensong, for example) on a crap-covered Roberts FM radio!

Ironic, coming from a *vinylist* isn't it?

(Equally ironic that a number of people who don't like vinyl can't seem to
accept the planar, 'digital sterility' of DBA, Freeview &c....)

FWIW, I have to say I don't detect a massive difference between FV and DAB
R3, other than a significant jump in loudness which makes comparisons
difficult.

(So I don't bother to compare them much....!! ;-)

Friends of Radio 3
 

In article , Keith G
writes

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes


Forfar. I can't recall the ERP, but I think it isn't one of the higher
powers. However it gives higher levels here than the alternatives. The
problem I think is that although we are up a hill, the main parts of
Fife 'behind' us are higher and tend to block signals from inland. We
might get more from the other transmitters if the topology were
favourable. Alas, Fife isn't the Fens... :-/

Yes its a main station and PCM fed at 17Kw mixed pol...

Perhaps a bit more directionality on the receiving aerials?. You might
be having some multipath perhaps...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/forfar.asp

The CT7000 has a meter to display multipath. I've also checked with a
spectrum analyser in the distant past. There are no signs of any
sigificant
level of multipath.

It may well be time for a 'new' tuner and/or a high-gain antenna on the
roof. However I am not certain, given the nature of the problems, how much
these will help. So I suppose I should also consider using either a
Freeview box or some form of satellite RX.


I don't seek to offer 'advice' here, but I would just mention that the
recent *much blogged* installation of a 4 element FM aerial here has ended
up with me ripping it off and using the mast and wiring for a TV aerial to
get a 'digital' signal strength on my PVRs that sticks out the side of the
TV screen! (I can see the top 2/3 lights of the Sandy Heath transmitter from
the top of my front path of an evening....)

Something very wrong there then Keith. Perhaps it was that cable join in
the gutter!..


Whether or not is was the downside of have an ultra-clear system I don't
know, but there was just too much going on with FM - roaring, distant
tweedling noises (birdy whistle?) and announcers clearly sounding like they
were in little cubicles!! As has been said elsewhere, the sound quality of
FM during the day wasn't much to shout about either!

Something else rather up the creek, don't have those sorta problems
here. They do have the announcers in smallish rooms tho!..


But then, my *best* radio listening is done in the garage in the afternoons
(R3 Evensong, for example) on a crap-covered Roberts FM radio!

Thats why they compress a bit;)


Ironic, coming from a *vinylist* isn't it?

Yep..


(Equally ironic that a number of people who don't like vinyl can't seem to
accept the planar, 'digital sterility' of DBA, Freeview &c....)

FWIW, I have to say I don't detect a massive difference between FV and DAB
R3, other than a significant jump in loudness which makes comparisons
difficult.

Well something very amiss there then!...

(So I don't bother to compare them much....!! ;-)




--
Tony Sayer

Friends of Radio 3
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
writes

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


It may well be time for a 'new' tuner and/or a high-gain antenna on the
roof. However I am not certain, given the nature of the problems, how
much
these will help. So I suppose I should also consider using either a
Freeview box or some form of satellite RX.


I don't seek to offer 'advice' here, but I would just mention that the
recent *much blogged* installation of a 4 element FM aerial here has ended
up with me ripping it off and using the mast and wiring for a TV aerial to
get a 'digital' signal strength on my PVRs that sticks out the side of the
TV screen! (I can see the top 2/3 lights of the Sandy Heath transmitter
from
the top of my front path of an evening....)

Something very wrong there then Keith. Perhaps it was that cable join in
the gutter!..


There is no cable join, it is one piece from the aerial to the appliance...




Whether or not is was the downside of have an ultra-clear system I don't
know, but there was just too much going on with FM - roaring, distant
tweedling noises (birdy whistle?) and announcers clearly sounding like
they
were in little cubicles!! As has been said elsewhere, the sound quality of
FM during the day wasn't much to shout about either!

Something else rather up the creek, don't have those sorta problems
here. They do have the announcers in smallish rooms tho!..


It's not so obvious on the Tannoys....



But then, my *best* radio listening is done in the garage in the
afternoons
(R3 Evensong, for example) on a crap-covered Roberts FM radio!

Thats why they compress a bit;)


Ironic, coming from a *vinylist* isn't it?

Yep..


Almost as ironic as someone who prefers 'digital' to Vinyl but prefers FM to
'digital'....

;-)