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"Keith G" wrote in message
...

(Does this mean I suffer a lot less from 'bias effect'....??? :-)

Hi Keith, I don't think it does, I think you are nearly (only nearly :-)) as
biased as the best of them, however, whenever we prefer one thing over
another I think we are demonstrating a bias toward what we prefer in many
instances. Our bias may be because of many reasons that are at variance with
the reasoning of others. So What! We all have biases in some area or
another.

I picked up a set of old home made speakers today without knowing what was
in them, but I could see through the cloth that they were fitted with a 12"
driver. The boxes are three feet wide and three feet high. When I got them
home and pulled them apart I find a Wharfedale Super 12/FS/AL 15 ohm driver
in each box. They were mated to an Atomix HTM-2 Japanese made tweeter (fair
bit of corrosion in the chrome finish). My eyes lit up a little until I
realised the drivers are not a perfectly matched pair. The cones, while they
appear original, differ in the number of concentric ridges in each cone.
Also, the foam surround on one is not in good condition at all. I would say
that one of the drivers is a later model then the other. Both cones have the
white writing (fairly faint) on the outer back edge that was evidently
placed there in the factory by QC.

I thought of you as one of the perfect people to build something to put them
into, however, they are unuseable as they are because of foam rot.

I have already put the tweeters on eBay here in Aussie (listed world wide so
you will find them in the UK). I haven't been able to find any info on the
tweeters on the net other then a few pictures on a japanese forum. It was an
interesting aquisition but one I really don't have any use for. I would have
much prefered the drivers to be from the later series AR3a's.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"APR" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

(Does this mean I suffer a lot less from 'bias effect'....??? :-)

Hi Keith, I don't think it does, I think you are nearly (only nearly :-))
as biased as the best of them, however, whenever we prefer one thing over
another I think we are demonstrating a bias toward what we prefer in many
instances. Our bias may be because of many reasons that are at variance
with the reasoning of others. So What! We all have biases in some area or
another.


Hmm..

There's a big difference between a bias and a preference. There's also a
difference in being biased towards something than being biased against it -
one is open-minded, the other is not. I prefer valve amps for some/most jobs
but I am not biased against SS amps - I have had an SS amp on (only) all
day, so far...



I picked up a set of old home made speakers today without knowing what was
in them, but I could see through the cloth that they were fitted with a
12" driver. The boxes are three feet wide and three feet high. When I got
them home and pulled them apart I find a Wharfedale Super 12/FS/AL 15 ohm
driver in each box. They were mated to an Atomix HTM-2 Japanese made
tweeter (fair bit of corrosion in the chrome finish). My eyes lit up a
little until I realised the drivers are not a perfectly matched pair. The
cones, while they appear original, differ in the number of concentric
ridges in each cone. Also, the foam surround on one is not in good
condition at all. I would say that one of the drivers is a later model
then the other. Both cones have the white writing (fairly faint) on the
outer back edge that was evidently placed there in the factory by QC.

I thought of you as one of the perfect people to build something to put
them into, however, they are unuseable as they are because of foam rot.


Nice of you to say so, but I'm not really a *speaker person* - luckily, my
choice of single, FR driver speakers has enabled me to avoid the problems
with/of crossovers and I don't really know much about them. What I do know
is that it is quite likely almost any tweeter/woofer arrangement will work
in almost any box to some extent and that it is easy to convince yourself
that they sound good.

The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is that we get *used* to a
certain speaker sound and, I think, naturally develop a preference for it.
This is why so many people seem to be trying to find the speakers of their
youth, as the modern stuff gets more and more 'technically capable' but
possibly less 'listenable - good for HT, less good for 'drawing you into the
music'....

Having said that, there's no denying modern, budget speakers offer a lot for
the money (and are usually very smart in appearance) if you don't mind a
small, relatively 'planar' sound with ****-all bass...??

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"APR" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ps.com...
Jim said:
For some years (decades in fact) I have persistently kept asking for
detailed evidence on various audio matters. This is to help decide what
the
reality of these situations might be. Alas, all too often I get in
response
all kinds of reactions and re-statements of opinions/conclusions, but
with
little in the way of detailed assessable evidence. All too often the
reaction seems to be defensive as if I am trying to "trip people up"
and "prove them wrong".

He then went on to say:
It would be nice if people who designed/made/sold equipment were
willing to
help. But I appreciate that you can't be bothered.

Now, it should be obvious to anyone with the slightest emotional
intelligence would see that Jim is playing the game "I'm just a good
guy asking for proof" and then turning round and attacking anyone who
doesn't give it to him. This sort of hypocrisy has been going on for
decades. As I said before several times, it won't stop because Jim
doesn't understand it and has no intention of stopping it. Maenwhile it
just annoys people.

I think you may be missinterpreting Jim's intentions here. What may be
frustrating Jim is that people propose scenarios that they will argue for
using intangibles, and will not make any attempt to provide something
tangible to support their arguements. This does tend to cause some level
of frustration in those who have knowledge anad experience, and are use to
working with facts.


Given that this group is not entirely made up from 'industry pros' (real or
imagined) or 'audio/electronics engineers' (?), there will be instances
where people cannot easily argue their case with *tangibles* and/or supply
meaningful research data. It is up to the 'technical types' here to find out
what point such a person is making without expecting said 'tangibles', if
they wish to take issue with such points without the frustration you
mention.

Otherwise the 'because I say so' card is the only one left to play....

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Keith G wrote:

wrote

What I find particularly amazing is that Arny would both paint SETs
with such a broad brush and fail to understand that bias effects are
still in play even with components that are widely agreed to have
audible colorations. You'd think someone who has made such a big deal
about bias effects would better understand them.

Sure, but it depends on the individual - in Arny's case (so aware of his own
bigotry in certain 'audio areas' he is continually trying to unload the
word) he has very fixed views and seems to have developed strange *hostile
feelings* towards certain items of audio kit (SETs being a good example) and
can't stand to hear others make positive comments about them!

What's good about massive intermodulation distortion ? It's the most unmusical
thing in the world.

Graham

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Keith G wrote:

After an hour I can say it's fine/OK and
if it was all I had I wouldn't be too unhappy, but usually when I swap back
to the valves (haven't got time atm) I find the *improvement* is
instantaneous and reaffirming.

It's called listening fatigue. The break that you give yourself so doing allows
the ear to recover. Now try it the other way round !

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Andy Evans wrote:

Jim said:
For some years (decades in fact) I have persistently kept asking for
detailed evidence on various audio matters. This is to help decide what
the
reality of these situations might be. Alas, all too often I get in
response
all kinds of reactions and re-statements of opinions/conclusions, but
with
little in the way of detailed assessable evidence. All too often the
reaction seems to be defensive as if I am trying to "trip people up"
and "prove them wrong".

He then went on to say:
It would be nice if people who designed/made/sold equipment were
willing to
help. But I appreciate that you can't be bothered.

Now, it should be obvious to anyone with the slightest emotional
intelligence would see that Jim is playing the game "I'm just a good
guy asking for proof" and then turning round and attacking anyone who
doesn't give it to him. This sort of hypocrisy has been going on for
decades. As I said before several times, it won't stop because Jim
doesn't understand it and has no intention of stopping it. Maenwhile it
just annoys people.

And your attitude annoys me !

Who are you to re-interpret his position and then claim he's lying ?

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

APR wrote:

"Andy Evans" wrote

As I said before several times, it won't stop because Jim
doesn't understand it and has no intention of stopping it. Maenwhile it
just annoys people.

I think you may be missinterpreting Jim's intentions here. What may be
frustrating Jim is that people propose scenarios that they will argue for
using intangibles, and will not make any attempt to provide something
tangible to support their arguements. This does tend to cause some level of
frustration in those who have knowledge anad experience, and are use to
working with facts.

I agree.

For something similar ( but a different approach ) take a look at Patrick
Turner's contributions in the thread 'tube rectifier impedance' in
rec.audio.tubes.

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

wrote:

The funny thing is when someone
says the food at such and such is great no one demands proof via DBTs.

But presumably they aren't making claims for 'fidelity' into the bargain !

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

I think you may be missinterpreting Jim's intentions here. What may be
frustrating Jim is that people propose scenarios that they will argue
for
using intangibles, and will not make any attempt to provide something
tangible to support their arguements. This does tend to cause some
level of
frustration in those who have knowledge anad experience, and are use to

working with facts. APR

I've been having this discourse with Jim for quite some time and I
think I understand his intentions quite well. The basic facts of the
case are that the home audio industry - unlike other arenas like
medicine where stringent tests are required (quite rightly) for
products - has almost universally based its recommendations of products
on comparative listening tests.

Jim wants to take an unusual step for the home audio scene and ask for
scientific proof of the superiority of A over B or the claim that A
sounds better than B. He seems oblivious to the reality that this is a
highly unusual demand, but continues to "demand" that people supply him
with such data. When they don't because they see no need to he turns on
them with dismissive comments and, in addition, invokes some mystical
"them" who will support his scientific case and treat people in the
same dismissive way (he has various terms for this "treat with
caution", "will come to their own conclusions" etc etc)

I have no problem with him asking for scientific proof if there is any
available, as long as his response when there is none forthcoming (in
almost all cases) is something along the lines of "fine, I was just
asking". But that's not the case, and there's the problem.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Who are you to re-interpret his position and then claim he's lying ?
Graham


I'm a psychologist - like it or not, my job is to interpret what people
say or do. I didn't say Jim was lying, and I wouldn't. He doesn't
strike me as the sort of person who would deliberately lie. I said his
attitide was hypocritical. You can't pretend to be the good guy and
then turn on people without expecting some comeback. You either accept
that you're being critical and deal with the consequences or you do the
whole nice guy thing and treat people with grace and acceptance. I
don't fall for all this faux ingenue stuff of "I'm only asking for
scentific proof, and I really don't see what all the fuss is about".