On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 19:20:05 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:53:13 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote


Yebbut, do practice turning down until it isn't clipping any more.


The volume on the amp is at 8 o' clock and not loud in the room, the gain
on
the preamp is about 20% (if that) of max, the sliders in SF are nearly on
the floor - it records fine (OK, maybe up to 0.0 on the heavy ****, but
the
'clip flags' don't come on).....

...and then the fekkin thing clips on playback.....???

Need to get the socket set out, I suspect....


Well, those pics are really heavily clipped. Fire up the windows
mixer, click the advanced button on the mic input and take away the
tick from the 20dB gain box. That should make the sliders and levels a
bit friendlier.


Noop - the recordings are single channel from the mic's pre into my
'computer amp' Aux Input and Tape Out to the computer.

Here's the last batch - A and B are the same setup as Bangs A and B, C and D
are swapped about a bit. The 'dual mono' workaround was employed to avoid
the -6dB SF brick wall (??) and provide two channels of music - with a
little adjustment here and there to avoid clipping, but it wasn't a breeze!!

So.....

Which twin has the Toni..??

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track%2085%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track%2085%20B.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track%2085%20C.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track%2085%20D.mp3


Here's the original CD track for reference - stereo, of course!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...2085%20Ref.mp3


Pick the winner and I will reveal all.....

(At least it was an interesting and useful way of frittering away a
decidedly *autumnal* afternoon - it has bucketted down here! :-)


Well B and D both have the same problem of a horrifying fizzy
distorted top end, although I have to say that they are all (apart
from the reference) very lacking in bass. If these have been recorded
through the Behringer mic, that is down to the speakers. We also have
the rapid dropoff above 10kHz on all of the speaker files - again, not
down to the mic any more.

So what is it with B and D? I'm actually surprised you can bear to
listen to them, they are just horrible.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote


Well B and D both have the same problem of a horrifying fizzy
distorted top end, although I have to say that they are all (apart
from the reference) very lacking in bass. If these have been recorded
through the Behringer mic, that is down to the speakers. We also have
the rapid dropoff above 10kHz on all of the speaker files - again, not
down to the mic any more.

So what is it with B and D? I'm actually surprised you can bear to
listen to them, they are just horrible.


I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!! (Despite
the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)

I think I know what at least part of the problem is here - I aimed the mic
at the 'other' speakers and haven't moved throughout all the recordings. I
guess it was therefore well 'off axis' for B & D, although I thought it
probably wouldn't matter much. (How do you 'aim' a mic when the bass is
coming off the rear wall...??)

Anyway, thanks for that - although you most certainly *haven't* confirmed
out the speakers I was hoping you would!!

The setup was as follows:

Pioneer DV-350 DVDP (enables easy track selection by number)
Denon PMA-655R ss amp (50wpc, I believe)
2A3 SET (4 wpc) via 'pre out' from Denon
Lowther PM6Cs in Jericho cabinets
Lowther EX3s in (In)Fidelio cabinets

The tracks were as follows:

A = Denon/PM6C

B = 2A3/EX3

C = 2A3/PM6C

D = Denon/EX3


(I have listened to them all on cheapo Sennheiser HD 202 cans and don't like
any of them, including the CD direct 'reference' track which sounds like its
got a foghorn/wet fart blowing all the way through it!!)

Thanks for your efforts, anyway - have a good evening...!! ;-)

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 21:30:26 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

So what is it with B and D? I'm actually surprised you can bear to
listen to them, they are just horrible.


I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!! (Despite
the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)


Try an experiment. Stick a finger on one ear while you listen - it
turns off some of the brains compensation mechanisms. Does it sound a
little more like the recordings now?

Incidentally, you should never play a recording back in the room it
was made in - every unflatness multiplies, and the whole thing sounds
appalling.

I think I know what at least part of the problem is here - I aimed the mic
at the 'other' speakers and haven't moved throughout all the recordings. I
guess it was therefore well 'off axis' for B & D, although I thought it
probably wouldn't matter much. (How do you 'aim' a mic when the bass is
coming off the rear wall...??)


When you say off axis, do you mean off the mic's axis, or off the
speaker's axis? That mic has a great pattern, so going off axis won't
matter. The speaker is more worrisome. You normally expect to lose
treble when you move off a speaker's axis, but this seems to have
gained the better part of 20dB; that should be impossible.

Anyway, thanks for that - although you most certainly *haven't* confirmed
out the speakers I was hoping you would!!

The setup was as follows:

Pioneer DV-350 DVDP (enables easy track selection by number)
Denon PMA-655R ss amp (50wpc, I believe)
2A3 SET (4 wpc) via 'pre out' from Denon
Lowther PM6Cs in Jericho cabinets
Lowther EX3s in (In)Fidelio cabinets

The tracks were as follows:

A = Denon/PM6C

B = 2A3/EX3

C = 2A3/PM6C

D = Denon/EX3


Well that confirms that the big differences are the speakers, not the
rest of the kit.


(I have listened to them all on cheapo Sennheiser HD 202 cans and don't like
any of them, including the CD direct 'reference' track which sounds like its
got a foghorn/wet fart blowing all the way through it!!)


Well, it was your choice ;-)

Thanks for your efforts, anyway - have a good evening...!! ;-)

Welcome.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 21:30:26 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

So what is it with B and D? I'm actually surprised you can bear to
listen to them, they are just horrible.


I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!!
(Despite
the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)


Try an experiment. Stick a finger on one ear while you listen - it
turns off some of the brains compensation mechanisms. Does it sound a
little more like the recordings now?


:-)



Incidentally, you should never play a recording back in the room it
was made in - every unflatness multiplies, and the whole thing sounds
appalling.


Sure, bin there, heard that....


snip tale of woe


(I have listened to them all on cheapo Sennheiser HD 202 cans and don't
like
any of them, including the CD direct 'reference' track which sounds like
its
got a foghorn/wet fart blowing all the way through it!!)


Well, it was your choice ;-)


Since this exchange I have heaved stuff about and ended up *exactly* where I
started - totally the opposite of the recordings, asitappens!!!

No complete waste of time though, all part of the learning curve - if
nothing else it has utterly reinforced my preference for 300Bs (against SS,
2A3s and 6550 PP atm) and vinyl in *spades*!! And, believe it or not,
finalised my choice for the EX3/Fidelios!!

All very strange.....

Keith G wrote:


I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!! (Despite
the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)

I think I know what at least part of the problem is here - I aimed the mic
at the 'other' speakers and haven't moved throughout all the recordings. I
guess it was therefore well 'off axis' for B & D, although I thought it
probably wouldn't matter much. (How do you 'aim' a mic when the bass is
coming off the rear wall...??)


Ahh, just a mo, don't "aim" the mike at the speakers, AFAIK, its a omni,
but should be positioned pointing up. I may have misled you saying
position it in line with the drive unit. What I meant was have the end
of the mike in line with the axis of the speaker. Though given the size
of the room, it will be getting as much from the room as directly from
the speaker. Part of the reason its a thin pointy shape is to avoid
having surfaces near the capsule that will cause unwanted ripples in the
response. Idealy have it on the top of a mike stand, or as I suggested
suspend it from above by the cable.

Or I could be wrong. Don?

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!!
(Despite the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)

I think I know what at least part of the problem is here - I aimed the
mic at the 'other' speakers and haven't moved throughout all the
recordings. I guess it was therefore well 'off axis' for B & D, although
I thought it probably wouldn't matter much. (How do you 'aim' a mic when
the bass is coming off the rear wall...??)


Ahh, just a mo, don't "aim" the mike at the speakers, AFAIK, its a omni,
but should be positioned pointing up. I may have misled you saying
position it in line with the drive unit. What I meant was have the end of
the mike in line with the axis of the speaker. Though given the size of
the room, it will be getting as much from the room as directly from the
speaker. Part of the reason its a thin pointy shape is to avoid having
surfaces near the capsule that will cause unwanted ripples in the
response. Idealy have it on the top of a mike stand, or as I suggested
suspend it from above by the cable.



OK, ballsed that up then! :-)

I'll knock up a little stand and line it up with the EX3s...

Nick Gorham wrote:

Keith G wrote:

I don't - they bear virtually no relation to what I hear for real!! (Despite
the Behringer is a million % better than the little lapel mic!!)

I think I know what at least part of the problem is here - I aimed the mic
at the 'other' speakers and haven't moved throughout all the recordings. I
guess it was therefore well 'off axis' for B & D, although I thought it
probably wouldn't matter much. (How do you 'aim' a mic when the bass is
coming off the rear wall...??)

Ahh, just a mo, don't "aim" the mike at the speakers, AFAIK, its a omni,
but should be positioned pointing up. I may have misled you saying
position it in line with the drive unit. What I meant was have the end
of the mike in line with the axis of the speaker. Though given the size
of the room, it will be getting as much from the room as directly from
the speaker. Part of the reason its a thin pointy shape is to avoid
having surfaces near the capsule that will cause unwanted ripples in the
response. Idealy have it on the top of a mike stand, or as I suggested
suspend it from above by the cable.

If Keith wants to capture the sound he hears, the mic should be positioned in his
listening position.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

If Keith wants to capture the sound he hears, the mic should be positioned in his
listening position.

But if he wants to demonstrate the sound of the speakers rather than the room
he should do one channel at a time in an anechoic chamber, or at least at the
bottom of the garden on a still night.

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

Eiron wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

If Keith wants to capture the sound he hears, the mic should be positioned in his
listening position.

But if he wants to demonstrate the sound of the speakers rather than the room

That's not what he's listening to is it ?

Graham

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

If Keith wants to capture the sound he hears, the mic should be
positioned in his
listening position.

But if he wants to demonstrate the sound of the speakers rather than the
room
he should do one channel at a time in an anechoic chamber, or at least at
the
bottom of the garden on a still night.



Yes, I discovered ages ago that the greater the distance mic to speaker, the
worse the 'cavern effect'....