"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

You'd never catch me on my 'bike....!!

My bike is faster than your bike if both bikes are out of gas. ;-)

At nearly a quarter of a ton, when my bike's out of gas it's going
*nowhere* and all it wants to do is lay down!!

Exactly. My bike weighs about 25 pounds and gets infinite miles per
gallon of petrol.


But how many miles to the 'burger?

There are no *free rides* - all bikes need feeding with energy to make
them move...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

You'd never catch me on my 'bike....!!

My bike is faster than your bike if both bikes are out of gas. ;-)

At nearly a quarter of a ton, when my bike's out of gas it's going
*nowhere* and all it wants to do is lay down!!

Exactly. My bike weighs about 25 pounds and gets infinite miles per
gallon of petrol.

But how many miles to the 'burger?

Quite a few dozen, since I rarely eat burgers.

There are no *free rides* - all bikes need feeding with energy to make
them move...

Yes, but getting the bike's weight down to a couple of dozen pounds works
wonders as compared to those that way between a quarter and a half a ton.
;-)

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Alternatively, a summary introduction to the relevant part of his work
is covered in part 8 of the 'Information and Measurement' section of
the 'Scots Guide'.

As close to a simple explanation of information theory in the Scots
guide seems to be:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Sc...rt2/page1.html

"In this case, the combination of 1 mV of noise, a signal voltage range
of 1 V, and a 1 microsecond response time mean that there is no point
in using an ADC which tries to collect more than 10 bits per
microsecond. It is important to note that this limitation of the rate
the ADC collects information is imposed by the channel which transmits
the analog signal to it, not a defect of the ADC itself. A better ADC
wouldn't give us any extra information since 10×10 bits per second is
all this particular analog signal channel can carry."

In order to drive home the core question at hand, It would be nice to
have worked-out comparisons of the information capacity of a LP, a CD,
and a high speed analog tape.

TBH I didn't do that on the webpages as they are also the lecture notes
for
the undergrad course, and I tend to set working out the above examples as
either a tutorial question, or part of an exam question. Hence I tend to
cover it as examples in tutorial/revision lectures most years.

OK - pages like yours take a lot of work.

I think it would be fair to add the simplifying assumption that the
noise and distortion in all 3 is uniform with resepect to frequency.
Then say that the LP and the tape perform even worse than the estimate
shown, for the reason of their highly non-uniform bandwith and dynamic
range.

There is a very rough approximation dealing with the useable dynamic range
of LP in part 12 of the I and M section. However it isn't meant to give an
accurate result, just to illustrate that analog systems also show
'quantised' effects, etc, and thus aren't really different to digital
systems so far as information/comms theory is concerned.

I think that the thing that is missing from the web is a clear parallel
treatment of LP versus CD in terms of first and formost dynamic range and
information, with other issues less important.

FWIW I've just sent off an article that goes over the max levels that can
be recorded onto Vinyl LP as a function of frequency and distance from
center of rotation. Nothing new as it really just brings up-to-date what
Stan Kelly and others did decades ago, but my impression is that many
modern readers of audio mags won't be familiar with it. Should appear in
the December HFN all being well.

More evidence to dispell the idea that vinyl is somehow cleaner than the CD.

Since I did also cover the noise level of Vinyl LP as a function of
frequency some time ago I can now put these together and work out a rather
more accurate estimate of the information capacity of Vinyl LP, so I'll do
that when I get a chance. :-)

Indeed.

On 6 Sep, 14:38, "Keith G" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

. ..





"Keith G" wrote in message
.. .

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

You'd never catch me on my 'bike....!!

My bike is faster than your bike if both bikes are out of gas. ;-)

At nearly a quarter of a ton, when my bike's out of gas it's going
*nowhere* and all it wants to do is lay down!!

Exactly. My bike weighs about 25 pounds and gets infinite miles per
gallon of petrol.

But how many miles to the 'burger?

There are no *free rides* - all bikes need feeding with energy to make
them move...

ever hear of a fececycle?

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Therefore, by the most pro-LP-biased of technical evaluations, the
music information leader is as always the CD format, and by a factor
of at least 10. This means that if the LP format had far more
bandwidth than the CD format (which as a practical matter it does not)
the LP format would need to have 10 times more bandwidth than the CD
format to break even.

It would be a different world if journalists who pretend to be
technical experts by dispensing technical advice had useful amounts of
basic audio engineering training.


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl (Violin
A) compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for you.

(Less so heard over speakers than via 'phones - which will reveal far
too much of the noise coming from a poorly-sited turntable and the
'spitch' from the *first playing* of a newly-acquired, freshly-cleaned
'eBay' LP....)

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote
[snip]

It would be a different world if journalists who pretend to be
technical experts by dispensing technical advice had useful amounts of
basic audio engineering training.


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl (Violin
A) compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for you.

Keith, you may be confusing the container with the contained.

The information capacity of a 'channel' (e.g. the LP and CD *systems*) is
quite a different matter from how any individual example of their *use* is
employed. Thus any differences you hear in a given example, or your
personal preferences aren't necessarily relevant to the question of
information capacity of the *systems* as information communication
channels.

So, for example: The fact that some CD versions of some music are clipped,
or that some LPs have other production problems are a matter of how well
those involved have made use of the media. Not a matter of what either
medium is capable of doing when used well.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl (Violin A)
compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for you.

What case?

Two different recordings of two different performances of two different
musical selections that (News Flash!) sound different.

Here, let me fire up my parametric equalizer and make the tonal balance of
the second more like the first... ;-)

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote
[snip]

It would be a different world if journalists who pretend to be
technical experts by dispensing technical advice had useful amounts
of
basic audio engineering training.


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl
(Violin
A) compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for you.

Keith, you may be confusing the container with the contained.


Hmmm - see below...


The information capacity of a 'channel' (e.g. the LP and CD *systems*)
is
quite a different matter from how any individual example of their
*use* is
employed. Thus any differences you hear in a given example, or your
personal preferences aren't necessarily relevant to the question of
information capacity of the *systems* as information communication
channels.

So, for example: The fact that some CD versions of some music are
clipped,
or that some LPs have other production problems are a matter of how
well
those involved have made use of the media. Not a matter of what either
medium is capable of doing when used well.


Jimbo, you should know better than to take some (most? all?) of my posts
at face value - those clips are bugger-all to do with Arny's thread, it
was just a convenient place to hang them!

What had happened is that I had 'transcribed' (?) a recently-acquired LP
to my hard disk on a fairly unsatisfactory setup (the turntable was on
the *table* I use for my computer and is far too resonant) with the
result that I had a nearly-useless, noisy recording even by LP
standards. As the music itself was striking (clarity, 'dynamics', air -
typical Supraphon) I thought I'd slap a similar* snippet of CD alongside
it for a bit of fun. (Did you hear them - they are less than 200k each?)

Despite the obvious defects, I still think the LP snippet sounds pretty
good over a speaker system and Swim said she liked them both, so there
ya go!!


*Struggled to find a bit of unaccompanied violin on CD, asitappens!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl
(Violin A) compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for
you.

What case?


Your signature 'all vinyl is crap' case, wot else?



Two different recordings of two different performances of two
different musical selections that (News Flash!) sound different.

Here, let me fire up my parametric equalizer and make the tonal
balance of the second more like the first... ;-)


No thanks - we've got enough 'analogue-sounding' CDs (and CDPs) kicking
about as it is....

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Here ya go Arny - have these on me:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20A.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Violin%20B.mp3


The relatively poor transcription from the 'Supraphonic' vinyl (Violin
A) compared with the CD (Violin B) should make your case for you.

What case?

Your signature 'all vinyl is crap' case, wot else?

How so?

Two different recordings of two different performances of two different
musical selections that (News Flash!) sound different.

Here, let me fire up my parametric equalizer and make the tonal balance
of the second more like the first... ;-)

No thanks - we've got enough 'analogue-sounding' CDs (and CDPs) kicking
about as it is....

How so?