"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:30 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so.
It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS
amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it
not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems)
simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too
fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....



But it is a fact that those amplifiers don't do anything to the signal
- no wishful thinking needed. I've done the tests myself putting a
power amplifier in line (followed by an attenuator) to assess whether
it makes any difference to the signal, and I assure you that it
doesn't.


Sod 'tests' Don - we've all seen that old guff about 5 amps in a row &c.
&c. - I have spent a considerable amount of time, money and effort
swapping to and fro between different types of kit including the latest
*SS revisitation*! Trust me that I have at least an idea of what SS
amplifaction sounds like, but when I get back to a SET/horns setup it's
like *coming home*!! SS is fine for the telly, radio, movies and
computer but not for plating *music*....

Do try to get this understood: There are no less than 5 PP amps here
(and only 2 SETs) and 3 of them are SS - two of which are in *daily
use*....

OK??

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:46:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ups.com...
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


Yes, put simply (the sound from) 'normal' speakers and 'normal' SS
amps
sounds flat and lifeless by comparison.

Shoot me for not choosing 'flat and lifeless'....


That's all fine. Your kit adds unflatness and liveliness. Those are
both quite valid effects; for me they pall very quickly and I yearn
for the variety of music that isn't all varnished in that one colour.


My kit stands the music out big and crystal clear - there's no *colour*
to it. That's a phrase/word you meterheads like to use to convince
yourselves you're doing the right thing!

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:21 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns'
is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant
of
the sound....



See my latest reply to Andy. This is a relative thing, and you are
standing on the moving bit.


But you 'sand ampers' are the ones busy *augmenting* your systems and
trying to change the way they present the music...???


No. Categorically not. There is absolutely no augmenting going on in
my system. Every bit of kit is chosen and set up to be as inaudible as
possible.


:-)

So it's *silent* then...???

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:30 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so.
It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS
amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it
not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems)
simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too
fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....



But it is a fact that those amplifiers don't do anything to the
signal
- no wishful thinking needed. I've done the tests myself putting a
power amplifier in line (followed by an attenuator) to assess whether
it makes any difference to the signal, and I assure you that it
doesn't.


Sod 'tests' Don - we've all seen that old guff about 5 amps in a row
&c. &c. - I have spent a considerable amount of time, money and effort
swapping to and fro between different types of kit including the
latest *SS revisitation*! Trust me that I have at least an idea of
what SS amplifaction sounds like, but when I get back to a SET/horns
setup it's like *coming home*!! SS is fine for the telly, radio,
movies and computer but not for plating *music*....


Plating?

Shiy! I didn'y mean yo yipe yhay....

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:41:44 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:30 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so.
It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS
amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it
not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems)
simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too
fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....



But it is a fact that those amplifiers don't do anything to the signal
- no wishful thinking needed. I've done the tests myself putting a
power amplifier in line (followed by an attenuator) to assess whether
it makes any difference to the signal, and I assure you that it
doesn't.


Sod 'tests' Don - we've all seen that old guff about 5 amps in a row &c.
&c. - I have spent a considerable amount of time, money and effort
swapping to and fro between different types of kit including the latest
*SS revisitation*! Trust me that I have at least an idea of what SS
amplifaction sounds like, but when I get back to a SET/horns setup it's
like *coming home*!! SS is fine for the telly, radio, movies and
computer but not for plating *music*....

Do try to get this understood: There are no less than 5 PP amps here
(and only 2 SETs) and 3 of them are SS - two of which are in *daily
use*....

OK??

Of course that is OK. But that is all about what you like, not whether
an amp does anything to the signal. You only find that out by trying
the same signal path with and without the amp.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:45:03 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:21 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns'
is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant
of
the sound....



See my latest reply to Andy. This is a relative thing, and you are
standing on the moving bit.


But you 'sand ampers' are the ones busy *augmenting* your systems and
trying to change the way they present the music...???


No. Categorically not. There is absolutely no augmenting going on in
my system. Every bit of kit is chosen and set up to be as inaudible as
possible.


:-)

So it's *silent* then...???



Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:43:50 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

That's all fine. Your kit adds unflatness and liveliness. Those are
both quite valid effects; for me they pall very quickly and I yearn
for the variety of music that isn't all varnished in that one colour.


My kit stands the music out big and crystal clear - there's no *colour*
to it. That's a phrase/word you meterheads like to use to convince
yourselves you're doing the right thing!



All that "big" stuff? - That is the colour. When I hear that in a Hi
Fi shop I just walk on by and go and find the stuff that can do the
job without all the shouting.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:



No, I think it is simply a matter of preference.

Here's a question for you. Suppose some record label took all your
views on board, and produced records with wobbly eq and even order
harmonic distortion. Could you see yourself playing these records on
non-distorting, flat FR equipment - or would you still be listening to
it with SETs and horns?

d


And the answer is, I don't know. Why not create me a audio clip, one
without processing, one with whatever you feel will hit the mark for me.
I will listen to both, the clear one, with CD - Set - OB speakers, the
distorted one via CD - headphones.

If your theory is correct, I should (and may I don't know) hear the same
"improvement" in both cases.

--
Nick

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:08:46 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:



No, I think it is simply a matter of preference.

Here's a question for you. Suppose some record label took all your
views on board, and produced records with wobbly eq and even order
harmonic distortion. Could you see yourself playing these records on
non-distorting, flat FR equipment - or would you still be listening to
it with SETs and horns?

d


And the answer is, I don't know. Why not create me a audio clip, one
without processing, one with whatever you feel will hit the mark for me.
I will listen to both, the clear one, with CD - Set - OB speakers, the
distorted one via CD - headphones.

If your theory is correct, I should (and may I don't know) hear the same
"improvement" in both cases.

What I was really wondering was whether a double hit of valves etc
(whatever you like) would be even better than the single pass through
the system.

I don't currently have any valve stuff to do this with, but if I come
across any I will give it a go.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:20:29 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:



Of course that is OK. But that is all about what you like, not whether
an amp does anything to the signal. You only find that out by trying
the same signal path with and without the amp.

d


Hang on, there is a strawman here, I don't think anyone would clame that
a SET doesnt do anything to the signal, compaired to a SS amp with 60dB
of feedback, a typical SET's transfer curve looks like a dogs hind leg.
And the same can be said about a lowther compaired to a pair of PMCs.

The point is, that even given this translation, the result seems
consistently to a group of us, to better (I use the word intentionally)
convey the impression of a musical performance.

Thats the interesting thing, not who is on the moving train, but there
seems to be a group of people, who knowing all that is going on, and are
capable of reading a wave analyser, who consistently prefer the "broken"
amp. Now you can choose to regard this as an effect box, whatever. But
the fact is those in that group do seem consistent in their views. They
may differ from yours, thats fine, but it seems to me to be bad science
to ignore this information, just because it doesn't fit your world view.

In other words the statistics of the situation seems to show two
distinct peaks, not a smooth distribution. Doesn't that interest you in
some way?

Yup. As I have been saying all the way through - it is simply a matter
of some people preferring the "dog's hind leg" as you put it. I've
never had a problem with that. I have a problem with people claiming
that such amps do nothing to the sound while SS amps do - that is just
plain stupid.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com