"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 6, 8:28 pm, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

oups.com...

Jute:
Trevor has a most novel view of what constitutes a lie. He accused
me
of lying about j-fets in a debate about negative feedback. When I
protested that I had said nothing whatsoever about j-fets, Trevor
replied that I was "lying by not presenting their advantages over
tubes" [paraphrased]. I was stunned into silence...

Wilson
**Bull****. However, feell free to provide a cite for your little
story.

Trevor Wilson

Not j-fets, BJTs, mnemonic Blow Jobs for Transvestites; you can tell
from the need for a mnemonic that to me all those creepy crawlies are
a chinese population explosion...

**I take it that is the closest we will get to an admission that you got
it
wrong?

OK. I'll take what I can get. You were wrong. I accept that.

Next time, quote me correctly, or not at all.

Trevor Wilson

You should take your own advice, Wilson, and quote me in full.

**I said: Quote me CORRECTLY (emphasis added). The words are immediately
above. Read them.

Instead
you snipped away the point of my post so you could score some petty
little point about lookalike silicon centipedes, all of them equally
disgusting. Here is the point of my post restored:

**I snipped the irrelevancies. We are (at present) discussing your
misquoting of my words. Nothing more. I am not (at present) discussing the
specific advantages and disadvantages of various amplification devices with
you. I am *only* discussing your misquoting of my words. Nothing more.

Irrelevancies snipped

Trevor Wilson

On Nov 6, 10:43 pm, Andy Evans wrote:
Timbre and "tone" (whatever you mean by that) are not areas which are
peculiarly musician-centric abilities.

I wouldn't say that to a professional musician - he would think you
sold chickens for a living. Timbre and tone are absolutely central to
any musician. And indeed composers - have you noticed those Italian
words like "dolce", "sforzando" and "spiccato" plastered all over
their scores?

Holy moloney. Some people don't read what they send to the usenet. How
can you be a musician and not be interested in timbre and tone? (Aside
from the fact that the difference between timbre and tone is a whole
flame war in itself...)

I wrote about music and musicians for 47 years, from puberty until I
turned 60, interviewing everyone from leading performers to conductors
to impresario and financiers and angel. And I can't think of a day on
which I did not hear tone at least mentioned, and on most days
seriously discuseed.

If only those who aspire to literature would take as serious an
interest in grammar!

In amazement at the wicked ignorance of some,

Andre Jute
You can reach my books through http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/

I entered "kreisler" and "tone" into Google (starting with the
bleeding obvious) and the first of several references we

"A photograph of Fritz Kreisler hangs on the wall and Dr. Suzuki
constantly makes reference to the Kreisler tone"

"Kreisler's tone comes out as sweet and pure as memory held it to be"

"Many years later, Flesch told me privately, "Young Kreisler's tone
was the 'personification of sin.'" To a public used to the "purity" of
Joachim or Rose, ..."

"Although in its early years recording technology left a lot to be
desired, you could at least try to imagine what it must have been
like, for example, to hear Kreisler's tone in real life."

That's just the first entries for Fritz Kreisler.

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ups.com...
Timbre and "tone" (whatever you mean by that) are not areas which are
peculiarly musician-centric abilities.

I wouldn't say that to a professional musician - he would think you
sold chickens for a living. Timbre and tone are absolutely central to
any musician. And indeed composers - have you noticed those Italian
words like "dolce", "sforzando" and "spiccato" plastered all over
their scores?

**Utter nonsense. Let's discuss (say) Beethoven's ability to discern timbre
and tone, in his latter years (as a composer and conductor). Was he
unsuccessful at these tasks?

Now, READ my words again. I'll repeat them for you:

"Timbre and "tone" (whatever you mean by that) are not areas which are
peculiarly musician-centric abilities."

My use of the word 'peculiarly' can be read from the following description:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/peculiarly

Note #3 from the first dictionary reference.

By that I mean that other listeners have the ability to discern timbre and
"tone" with as much or more accuracy than a given musician (let's use
Beethoven as an example of a gifted musician here).

Clear?

Trevor Wilson

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:02:46 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:43:46 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Can I just repost something that I originally posted almost exactly
three years ago. I know it doesn't directly reference SET's, but it
seems to address the same points that are going round and round here...


The word "better" is the problem. It is an objective term that is
being hijacked into a subjective meaning. It has clear objective
meanings in terms of flatness of frequency response, absence of
distortion etc.

Can't we simply refer to preference and thus have no reason to argue?
That would address the situation far more directly and appositely.

d


To quote wikipedia

"Better is the comparative form of the adjective good"

No sign of any of the clear objective meanings you have placed on it,
its as subjective as any other comparison. The fact that you may compare
using objective values, doesn't make your comparison any more valid than
any other to any other person.

IMHO.

Look at it this way. The job of an amplifier is to make a signal
better. A good amplifier will be one that does just that. A bad one
will be one that can't manage that without bending the signal in some
way. That degree of bending is easily measured in as objective a way
as you like, and you can thus derive a ranking of good - better - best
in a completely objective fashion.

If you are saying you quite like the sound of a bent amplifier, that
is fine, but it is a decidedly subjective position, and should not try
to avail itself of the objective terminology.

Unless, of course, you can justify an objective ranking in terms of
degree and type of distortion, position and size of peaks and dips in
frequency response etc. etc. etc. Do that, and I will quite happily
accept your assertion that your comparison is as good as the
non-bending amplifier test. I won't hold my breath, I'm afraid.


Forget all that, Don - this 'straight wire with gain' malarkey is aimed at
designers and manufacturers and comes from a time when 'fidelity' was hard
to come by; nowadays, you can get it from a gadget the size of a matchbox
(with a pair of decent earphones). By the time an amp is in the hands of
the *end user* it's a device for creating a pleasant/engaging/whatever
sound - witness all the *bass boost* buttons (and other available
adjustments) on various bits of kit....

**Bull****. I've measured thousands of amplifiers. The truly flawless ones
are quite rare. In fact, some of the most recent amplifiers are the worst of
all. Just measure anything with a TripathT chipset. Staggeringly bad
performance.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message ...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message ...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


**I'll try to make it REAL simple for you:

If you can't hear it, don't buy it.


That's eBay ****ed then....

**Wrong. There are a great many products available on eBay that
are/have been available in other places.

If you can't hear it, don't buy it.


So 'wise', yet so stupid....

**Let me see if I have this straight:

*I* have suggested that listening to a product is helpful when
determining if a product is worth buying.


No. You have said "If you can't hear it, don't buy it." (see right
above) - that is considerably more emphatic than merely
'helpful'....

**Indeed. Thanks for the correction.



*You* are suggesting that buying first, makes more sense.


News to me - I'm simply suggestiong that sometimes 'buying (or
building) first' is unavoidable in practical terms...

**Nope. It is never unavoidable. If you can't hear it, don't buy it.
Buy something else.


That you can go and hear presumably - even if it means on somebody
else's speakers, with somebody else's sources in some location other
than your own listening room?

**That would be less than ideal. However, as long as one can use some
kind of reference, it would be better than not hearing it at all.


I see - kinda check the 'heard it before I bought it' box, eh?









*I* am suggesting that people who sell stuff will always say that
it sounds good.


OK. My experience is different - even the local robber baron will
only describe cheap, plank turntables as 'OK for just making a bit
of noise', but there ya go....

**I'll betcha he says that they're the best value for money
turntables, though.


Nope. He doesn't care for turntables - they only stock the cheapest,
but they will supply anything you ask for (at a price)...




*You* are suggesting that people selling stuff should always be
trusted.


I am? Where is this all coming from? Do you hear voices?

**You are suggesting that people should buy stuff without first
performing a careful evaluation. To do so, implies that the seller
is trustworthy.


Well, if you buy *unheard* from eBay you are taking a bit of a chance
(half the fun for some), otherwise the supplier's reputation
(especially if they have a good returns policy) and the *brand* can
reduce the risk...

**Agreed. I have no issues, if a product can be returned.





*I* am suggesting that people who build stuff cannot provide
unbiased advice.


OK.


*You* are suggesting that people who build stuff are absolutely
reliable when offering advice about the stuff they've built.


I am? (More voices?)

**Nope.


Well then, stop fabricating...






Is that about it?

And you call me "stupid".


You bring it on yourself.

**Because I suggest that people listen to a piece of audio
equipment, BEFORE they plonk their cash down? How curious.


No, because you say 'if you can't hear, don't buy' - it's just not
practicable sometimes....

**Then don't buy it.







Wake up and smell the coffee.


Don't need to.

**Yeah, you do.


No I don't...

**Yeah, you do. Sellers are not always honest.


No, I still don't....






In an ideal world to 'hear before you buy' would be the best way to
go for sure,

**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.

but we're not in an ideal world and, for one reason or
another, I suspect the *majority* of audio gear that is bought in
this country is actually bought *unheard*.

**Let's refine that statement to:

"I suspect the *majority* of 'high quality' audio gear that is
bought in this country is actually bought *unheard*."

Is that better?


No. For a kick-off, I'm almost certain the majority of cheap (maybe
low quality) audio gear is bought unheard/unopened.

**I see. So, now you're expanding the discussion into the realm of
'boom boxes' and other non high fidelity areas. OK. You'll need to
conduct that discussion amongst yourself.


See above - I said: "I suspect the *majority* of audio gear that is
bought in this country is actually bought *unheard*." You are the one
who shifted the goalposts to "*majority* of 'high quality' audio gear" -
that's above also....

Keep chasing your tail Trevor - I'm sure you'll catch it one day....







I made the correction, because a lot of cheap, crappy audio
equipment is probably purcahsed without first being carefully
evaluated.


Yes, see above...


OTOH, IME, high
quality audio equipment is carefully listened to before purchase.


Not always

**Not always, but mostly.

- I was called in to set up an SME 10 turntable with (IIRC)
and expensive Ortofon cart at the above-mentioned shop (that only
stocks a few planks and the Numark USB tt mentioned a few days ago);
the new owner had not even seen it at that stage, let alone heard
it....

**Well, an SME 10 is a pretty damned fine unit, with a fine
reputation. SME have a long history of building superb products. It
would be a relatively rsik-free purchase. OTOH, puchasing a Chinese
amp, over eBay, from an unknown seller, is a whole different matter.
In any case, the SME 10 can be heard, if the buyer wishes to do so.



We're a couple of parsecs away from 'if you can't hear it don't buy it'
now, aren't we...??







In fact, I suspect almost
everybody in this group will have bought stuff at some point either
on spec. or because it was recommended verbally, or even because
they read a favourable review in a magazine!

**SOME, yes. MOST, no. Of course, Poms are different to Aussies.
But, I suspect, not that different.


Oh, I do hope so....

**Sorry to dissappoint.


Australians don't disappoint me - I have no expectation of them...








(It might help you to know that valve amps are not plentiful in
'audio shops' in this country, contrary to what the strong valve
presence in this group and the current 'valve fad' in audio
magazines might lead you believe - to assemble a selection of valve
amps for 'auditioning' would be a difficult and time-consuming
thing...)

**Iain has stated that valve amps constitute the vast majority of
high end amplifier sold in his country. Of course, he can't provide
any actual proof of that.


No more than you can prove "OTOH, IME, high quality audio equipment
is carefully listened to before purchase"....

**Please note the use of the term: "IME". It means: In My Experience.



You have yet to provide any evidence to justify this statement....





I can tell you that it is easy enough to locate a bunch of valve
amps (in one location) here in Australia. I would expect that it is
easier in the UK. What, with all that crappy weather and all.


Nope. Ask anyone....

**I have. You guys have crappy weather.


And you get the flies....





(It's not impossible, but easy it ain't - note the *lack* of a chorus
of people here saying I'm wrong....)

**As suggested by another poster: I would wonder who is selling all
those valve amps, that are advertised in Pommy audio rags?


The advertisers, presumably?

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:02:46 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:43:46 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Can I just repost something that I originally posted almost
exactly
three years ago. I know it doesn't directly reference SET's, but
it
seems to address the same points that are going round and round
here...


The word "better" is the problem. It is an objective term that is
being hijacked into a subjective meaning. It has clear objective
meanings in terms of flatness of frequency response, absence of
distortion etc.

Can't we simply refer to preference and thus have no reason to
argue?
That would address the situation far more directly and appositely.

d


To quote wikipedia

"Better is the comparative form of the adjective good"

No sign of any of the clear objective meanings you have placed on
it,
its as subjective as any other comparison. The fact that you may
compare
using objective values, doesn't make your comparison any more valid
than
any other to any other person.

IMHO.

Look at it this way. The job of an amplifier is to make a signal
better. A good amplifier will be one that does just that. A bad one
will be one that can't manage that without bending the signal in
some
way. That degree of bending is easily measured in as objective a way
as you like, and you can thus derive a ranking of good - better -
best
in a completely objective fashion.

If you are saying you quite like the sound of a bent amplifier, that
is fine, but it is a decidedly subjective position, and should not
try
to avail itself of the objective terminology.

Unless, of course, you can justify an objective ranking in terms of
degree and type of distortion, position and size of peaks and dips
in
frequency response etc. etc. etc. Do that, and I will quite happily
accept your assertion that your comparison is as good as the
non-bending amplifier test. I won't hold my breath, I'm afraid.


Forget all that, Don - this 'straight wire with gain' malarkey is
aimed at designers and manufacturers and comes from a time when
'fidelity' was hard to come by; nowadays, you can get it from a
gadget the size of a matchbox (with a pair of decent earphones). By
the time an amp is in the hands of the *end user* it's a device for
creating a pleasant/engaging/whatever sound - witness all the *bass
boost* buttons (and other available adjustments) on various bits of
kit....

**Bull****. I've measured thousands of amplifiers.


No need to flag the bull****, Trevor - we can see it plain enough....

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote


By "conventional" I meant modern SS amps or well designed PPUL valve
amps, but then you knew that.....


:-)




do nothing to the signal (except,
granted, they make it bigger) that is audible. This is confirmed
by both measurements, and the test I believe first publicised by
QUAD, of putting a suitably attenuated amplifier in series with
the signal path, and its presence (or absence) will be completely
transparent to listeners.


So when does the *bland* get put in then?

That's in your head. The "bland" is the absence of added stuff.


Oh, so that's what the *bland* is then?

**Be careful what you wish for. *bland* is something which may well be
a *good thing*. Bland often implies an absence of faults.

[Anecdote]
Many years ago, I owned a pair of Bailey designed KEF T-lines with
Radford crossovers (with a T-Line midrange). I loved 'em to bits.
Except for my wonderful NEAR 10Ms, I've never owned a pair of speakers
for as long as my old T-Lines. One night, a mate called by for a
listen. He had recently acquired a monstrous pair of Infinity RS4.5
speakers. The Infinitys had some clear advantages over my T-Lines. The
Infinitys were certainly 'splashier', had a much 'bigger' bottom end,
clearer, more extended mids and HF. He said as much, after a 5 minute
listen. After 3 hours, he turned to me and said: "Those speakers are
pretty good. You could easily live with them."

I am always wary of a system which provides something dramatic in the
way of sound. It may be a pointer that something is wrong.


It's gotta be weeks since anyone posted that old chestnut....

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...


**Well, an SME 10 is a pretty damned fine unit, with a fine reputation.
SME have a long history of building superb products. It would be a
relatively rsik-free purchase. OTOH, puchasing a Chinese amp, over eBay,
from an unknown seller, is a whole different matter. In any case, the SME
10 can be heard, if the buyer wishes to do so.



We're a couple of parsecs away from 'if you can't hear it don't buy it'
now, aren't we...??

**Nope. I suspect that there are quite a number of outlets in the UK where
this unit can be auditioned. And, as I stated, SME have an excellent
reputation. Or are you suggesting that the zillions of Chinese amplifier
purveyors have a reputation the equal of SME?








In fact, I suspect almost
everybody in this group will have bought stuff at some point either on
spec. or because it was recommended verbally, or even because they
read a favourable review in a magazine!

**SOME, yes. MOST, no. Of course, Poms are different to Aussies. But, I
suspect, not that different.


Oh, I do hope so....

**Sorry to dissappoint.


Australians don't disappoint me - I have no expectation of them...








(It might help you to know that valve amps are not plentiful in 'audio
shops' in this country, contrary to what the strong valve presence in
this group and the current 'valve fad' in audio magazines might lead
you believe - to assemble a selection of valve amps for 'auditioning'
would be a difficult and time-consuming thing...)

**Iain has stated that valve amps constitute the vast majority of high
end amplifier sold in his country. Of course, he can't provide any
actual proof of that.


No more than you can prove "OTOH, IME, high quality audio equipment is
carefully listened to before purchase"....

**Please note the use of the term: "IME". It means: In My Experience.



You have yet to provide any evidence to justify this statement....





I can tell you that it is easy enough to locate a bunch of valve
amps (in one location) here in Australia. I would expect that it is
easier in the UK. What, with all that crappy weather and all.


Nope. Ask anyone....

**I have. You guys have crappy weather.


And you get the flies....

**Not any more. I'm encouraging the local insectivorous birds to visit me.
They are remarkably good at catching flies.






(It's not impossible, but easy it ain't - note the *lack* of a chorus of
people here saying I'm wrong....)

**As suggested by another poster: I would wonder who is selling all those
valve amps, that are advertised in Pommy audio rags?


The advertisers, presumably?

**No retailers? Lemme tell you: If people adopt the sensible attitude of
hear before you buy, those valve amp promoters will quickly work out that
they need to arrange demo facilities.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...


**Well, an SME 10 is a pretty damned fine unit, with a fine
reputation. SME have a long history of building superb products. It
would be a relatively rsik-free purchase. OTOH, puchasing a Chinese
amp, over eBay, from an unknown seller, is a whole different matter.
In any case, the SME 10 can be heard, if the buyer wishes to do so.



We're a couple of parsecs away from 'if you can't hear it don't buy
it' now, aren't we...??

**Nope. I suspect that there are quite a number of outlets in the UK
where this unit can be auditioned. And, as I stated, SME have an
excellent reputation. Or are you suggesting that the zillions of
Chinese amplifier purveyors have a reputation the equal of SME?


Good job I don't suffer from hay fever ain't it...??










In fact, I suspect almost
everybody in this group will have bought stuff at some point
either on spec. or because it was recommended verbally, or even
because they read a favourable review in a magazine!

**SOME, yes. MOST, no. Of course, Poms are different to Aussies.
But, I suspect, not that different.


Oh, I do hope so....

**Sorry to dissappoint.


Australians don't disappoint me - I have no expectation of them...








(It might help you to know that valve amps are not plentiful in
'audio shops' in this country, contrary to what the strong valve
presence in this group and the current 'valve fad' in audio
magazines might lead you believe - to assemble a selection of
valve amps for 'auditioning' would be a difficult and
time-consuming thing...)

**Iain has stated that valve amps constitute the vast majority of
high end amplifier sold in his country. Of course, he can't
provide any actual proof of that.


No more than you can prove "OTOH, IME, high quality audio equipment
is carefully listened to before purchase"....

**Please note the use of the term: "IME". It means: In My
Experience.



You have yet to provide any evidence to justify this statement....





I can tell you that it is easy enough to locate a bunch of valve
amps (in one location) here in Australia. I would expect that it
is easier in the UK. What, with all that crappy weather and all.


Nope. Ask anyone....

**I have. You guys have crappy weather.


And you get the flies....

**Not any more. I'm encouraging the local insectivorous birds to visit
me. They are remarkably good at catching flies.






(It's not impossible, but easy it ain't - note the *lack* of a
chorus of people here saying I'm wrong....)

**As suggested by another poster: I would wonder who is selling all
those valve amps, that are advertised in Pommy audio rags?


The advertisers, presumably?

**No retailers? Lemme tell you: If people adopt the sensible attitude
of hear before you buy, those valve amp promoters will quickly work
out that they need to arrange demo facilities.


The few serious valve amp pedlars in this country (Icon Audio,
Affordable Valve) offer stuff on a 30 day trial/money back basis, if it
makes you any happier. As far as the boutiques go, I've no idea - I
suspect most of their customers are out of the country when their stuff
is being installed....

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:52:08 -0800, Andy Evans

It is really easy to reveal sounds in a recording that are otherwise
masked. You give a little twist to one of the eq pots on the desk. It
is like magic.

Much depends on what you mean by "masked" If the instrument
you are trying to bring forward is indistinct due to poor separation,
then "a little twist to one of the eq pots on the desk" is the worst
possible solution. A sensible engineer would probably choose a
different microphone is an improved position.

Iain