"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:22:28 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

So it's *silent* then...???

Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

But I'm sure the silences are blacker with SETs and horns. Needless to
say vinyl is blacker than CDs........


Not while they are playing. It is dark inside my CD player.


Laser broke?

Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:22:28 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:


So it's *silent* then...???

Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

But I'm sure the silences are blacker with SETs and horns. Needless to
say vinyl is blacker than CDs........



Not while they are playing. It is dark inside my CD player.

d


You need a new laser then.

--
Nick

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:46:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ps.com...
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


Yes, put simply (the sound from) 'normal' speakers and 'normal' SS amps
sounds flat and lifeless by comparison.

Relativity again.

Shoot me for not choosing 'flat and lifeless'....


Or "excellent" as I would describe it...

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:46:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ups.com...
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


Yes, put simply (the sound from) 'normal' speakers and 'normal' SS
amps
sounds flat and lifeless by comparison.

Relativity again.

Shoot me for not choosing 'flat and lifeless'....


Or "excellent" as I would describe it...


Relativity again....

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:46:20 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:22:28 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

So it's *silent* then...???

Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

But I'm sure the silences are blacker with SETs and horns. Needless to
say vinyl is blacker than CDs........


Not while they are playing. It is dark inside my CD player.


Laser broke?



Infra red. No light from that.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:13:33 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:


If eq were all there was to it, yes. But the key here is the
non-linearity of the valve amp.

d


Err, which bit of bent transfer curve didn't you notice? :-)

Or are you now suggesting there are further processes at work?

That's what I'm talking about. I can do the eq bit easily with my DAW,
but for the transfer curve I would need a valve amp, which I don't
have.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:46:20 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:22:28 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

So it's *silent* then...???

Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

But I'm sure the silences are blacker with SETs and horns. Needless
to
say vinyl is blacker than CDs........


Not while they are playing. It is dark inside my CD player.


Laser broke?



Infra red. No light from that.



Relativity again....

;-)

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:11:19 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:46:20 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:22:28 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

So it's *silent* then...???

Yup. Just the way I like it.

d

But I'm sure the silences are blacker with SETs and horns. Needless
to
say vinyl is blacker than CDs........


Not while they are playing. It is dark inside my CD player.


Laser broke?



Infra red. No light from that.



Relativity again....

;-)




Bloody hell - how fast does the laser move in your CD player?... I
reckon about 98% light speed to coax visible light out of an infra red
laser.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:41:44 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:30 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically
NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic.
You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that
kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself,
and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to
supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity
they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so.
It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS
amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it
not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems)
simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too
fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....



But it is a fact that those amplifiers don't do anything to the signal
- no wishful thinking needed. I've done the tests myself putting a
power amplifier in line (followed by an attenuator) to assess whether
it makes any difference to the signal, and I assure you that it
doesn't.


Sod 'tests' Don - we've all seen that old guff about 5 amps in a row &c.
&c. - I have spent a considerable amount of time, money and effort
swapping to and fro between different types of kit including the latest
*SS revisitation*! Trust me that I have at least an idea of what SS
amplifaction sounds like, but when I get back to a SET/horns setup it's
like *coming home*!! SS is fine for the telly, radio, movies and
computer but not for plating *music*....

Do try to get this understood: There are no less than 5 PP amps here
(and only 2 SETs) and 3 of them are SS - two of which are in *daily
use*....

OK??

Of course that is OK. But that is all about what you like, not whether
an amp does anything to the signal. You only find that out by trying
the same signal path with and without the amp.


All amps do something to the signal - that's never been the issue. Mine is
a case of personal preference and I have stated often that I don't really
care what others prefer...??


I disagree. Conventional amplifiers do nothing to the signal (except,
granted, they make it bigger) that is audible. This is confirmed by both
measurements, and the test I believe first publicised by QUAD, of putting a
suitably attenuated amplifier in series with the signal path, and its
presence (or absence) will be completely transparent to listeners.

SETs *do* change the signal, possibly in a way that you and others prefer,
but what comes out *is* different to what goes in.


(I have also stated that I wouldn't get into the defence of my
preferences, but there you go....)

Frankly Don, the less people here that *get into* SETs and horns the
better - it's always adds a nice little fruissance (sp?) to the occasion
when one feels one is slightly ahead of the pack!

;-)
I wonder - was that *too* obvious?? :-)


In my opinion, there's nothing to defend. You and others prefer the sound of
SETs, I and others don't.

S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

Don Pearce wrote:


If eq were all there was to it, yes. But the key here is the
non-linearity of the valve amp.

d


Err, which bit of bent transfer curve didn't you notice? :-)

Or are you now suggesting there are further processes at work?

--
Nick