"Arny Krueger"
"Anton Gÿsen"

What does it sound like and how does it compare to modern
CD players?

It sounds good enough all by itself.


** Sounds good compared to any CD player ever made.


In a close ABX test with certain program material and speakers you can
hear its two most potentially audible failings:


** In fact, they are almost never audible to anyone and in no way
constitute "failings".


(1) It uses analog filters whose response gets a little weird and
rolled-off above about 15 KHz.


** Arny should get an prize for his use of * purple prose* # .

Sony CDP101s have a FLAT response +0 / - 0.5 dB out to the limits of
audibility.


(2) It has only one DAC that is time shared between the two output
channels.


** It has one converter IC, but that IC is internally a stereo DAC.

The inter-channel delay is only 11.3 uS which is equal to 1/8 inch path
difference between ears and speakers. IOW non audible.


So, particularly if you have a center channel speaker driven by the two
channels summed, there is an additional roll-off above about 12 KHz that
is more audible.


** Complete ******** !!

Falsely assumes the machine is playing a MONO disk with L and R channels
*in perfect level and phase match* out to 20 kHz - something only
available from a test CD.



For casual listening with most speakers and music, its fine.

** For the *most serious of listening* with the best available speakers
( ie Quad ESL63s & subsequent models ) it is more than fine.



BTW you should know that a very high proportion of all CDP101s contained
....

** Note Arny's concealed use of the past tense.

The ICs concerned ( dual power op-amps ) all failed in the first year or two
of life - so any CDP101 still working has had them replaced long ago with
another type that simply does not have the problem.


# from Wiki:

" Purple prose is a term of literary criticism used to describe passages, or
sometimes entire literary works, written in prose so overly extravagant,
ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw attention to itself. Purple
prose is sensually evocative beyond the requirements of its context. It also
refers to writing that employs certain rhetorical effects such as
exaggerated sentiment or pathos in an attempt to manipulate a reader's
response. "


Arny does never informs - he manipulates.



....... Phil

"Anton Gÿsen"
Arny Krueger wrote:

(1) It uses analog filters whose response gets a little weird and
rolled-off above about 15 KHz.

I can imagine it sounds a bit "shut in".


** Fell for Arny's purple prose - hook, line and sinker.

Gulp .................


(2) It has only one DAC that is time shared between the two output
channels. So, particularly if you have a center channel speaker driven by
the two channels summed, there is an additional roll-off above about 12
KHz that is more audible.

The vast majority of people won't be using a centre speaker,


** Not used in any stereo systems since the early 60s - when many
recordings suffered from "hole in the middle" .


I thought it was the drawer mechanism that packed up due to the grease
drying out.


** The grease becomes very viscous and slows the plastic gears and other
moving parts down to a crawl.

It's a very easily fixed problem.


They look like they're built like a tank.


** Yep.



...... Phil

David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
m...
Can you not connect the Marantz via analogue, and compare that with your
super sound digital? I don't think you'd expect a difference - never know
though.


Errr..... isn't that exactly what he said he'd done?

David.


From Serge's post:

"My Meridian 206 is being used purely as a transport, feeding SP-DIF
directly into my loudspeakers. The CD63's analogue outputs are going
through an ADC then on to the loudspeakers, so I'm comparing a transport
with a complete unit, redigitised."

So, no.

Rob

"Rob" wrote in message
m...
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
m...
Can you not connect the Marantz via analogue, and compare that with your
super sound digital? I don't think you'd expect a difference - never
know though.


Errr..... isn't that exactly what he said he'd done?

David.


From Serge's post:

"My Meridian 206 is being used purely as a transport, feeding SP-DIF
directly into my loudspeakers. The CD63's analogue outputs are going
through an ADC then on to the loudspeakers, so I'm comparing a transport
with a complete unit, redigitised."

So, no.

Oh blimey!. Serge said that his speakers ONLY have digital inputs,

quote
Perhaps I should add my 'speakers are Meridian DSP5000/1500s, so they only
have SP-DIF inputs.
unquote

You even included that part in your previous post,so you must have seen it.
It follows, therefore, that an entirely analogue path from CD player to
speakers is not possible. What Serge did was to take the *analogue* output
of the Marantz and reconvert to digital purely in order to get it into his
speakers.

It seems plain enough to me!

David.

Certainly one o the biggest problems in sound quality in the early days were
the cds themselves. many companies seemed unable to make bass sound very
realistic. It was not the players as modern cds sound OK in this respect..
I do think that the transport and shock resistance is better now, resullting
in less skipping. The old Sony and Akai models were a little muddy and the
phase shift was obvious, but as you say, there law of diminishing returns
is as valid in diigital as anywhere else.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
m...
But the cd 100 and the Marantz were, as far as I know just double
oversampling 14bit d to as, surely we have more accurate chips these
days. My current Marntz is much better than the CD100, its less bright
to my ears, though dynamics sonded more dynamic on the CD100, which may
well just be the difference in tonal balance I guess.
I do have a problem with my current Marantz though, it will sometimes not
find a track, and give up. Then you have to eject the cd and start again.
The old CD100, seemingly will keep trying to find the track start for
ever...

Such dodgy CDs play fine on a Yamada DVD player, sigh...
Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Rob" wrote in message
om...
Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Brian Gaff wrote:
You know I reached under my bed and found my old Phillips CD100 the
other day. It still works!
A bit touchy to seizmic events, slow to find tracks, band a bit on
the bright side of comfortable, but it does still play CDs.

Be an antique soon I guess. sigh.

Double blind test. You know you want to!


--
Eiron.

I've just been given a Marantz CD63, which was the Marantz-badged
version of the CD100. Compared it to my current Meridian 206, couldn't
say there was any obvious difference, even though the Meridian was
going to my 'speakers SP-DIF to SP-DIF direct, and the Marantz was
going through my A-D converter first.

Just goes to show that if a product is audibly transparent, it's
transparent, and one transparent product will sound like another
transparent product.

If I can be bothered, I may do some level-matched blind testing, but
even sighted and not accurately level matched, there really wasn't
anything to choose between them.


Do you mean 'no difference between the transports', as opposed to
complete units including DACs?

Rob


Although modern CD players may well measure slightly better, even the
earliest players' performance were so far below thresholds of audibility
that they were essentially "perfect". If they were perfect then, any
improvements can't make them audibly any more perfect. That's why I
haven't found any audible improvement in CD players since 1983.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:
But the cd 100 and the Marantz were, as far as I know just double
oversampling 14bit d to as

IIRC all the first generation Philips and Marantz (rebadged Philips)
players were x4 (not x2) oversampling with 14bit dacs. This does nominally
provide 16 bit accuracy if correctly done. As outlined in the Philips Tech
Rev issue devoted at the time to the launch of CDA.

, surely we have more accurate chips these days.

I am not sure. Depends on how you are defining or measuring 'accurate'.
:-)

My current Marntz is much better than the CD100, its less bright
to my ears, though dynamics sonded more dynamic on the CD100, which may
well just be the difference in tonal balance I guess.

FWIW I used to use a 19khz LPF with my old Marantz CD73. Thought this made
it sound a bit better, but that may be nothing to do with the filtering.
Might be because it reduced the level into the following active stage.

The filter was a Toko Stereo MPX filter designed for Yamaha FM tuners that
used 19kHz active nulling, so could give the tuner a flatter response out
to about 16kHz. Quite useful as a general purpose audio lpf.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Anton Gÿsen" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Anton Gÿsen" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Anton Gÿsen" wrote in message

Brian Gaff wrote:

You know I reached under my bed and found my old
Phillips CD100 the other day. It still works!
A bit touchy to seizmic events, slow to find tracks,
band a bit on the bright side of comfortable, but it
does still play CDs.

If you've got a Sony CDP-101 in your attic as well
then I'll be impressed. Always wanted to hear one of
those.

I have one that still works very well. Even plays CD-Rs
well.

What does it sound like and how does it compare to
modern CD players?

It sounds good enough all by itself. In a close ABX test
with certain program material and speakers you can hear
its two most potentially audible failings:

(1) It uses analog filters whose response gets a little
weird and rolled-off above about 15 KHz.

I can imagine it sounds a bit "shut in".

Just a little less airy.

(2) It has only one DAC that is time shared between the
two output channels. So, particularly if you have a
center channel speaker driven by the two channels
summed, there is an additional roll-off above about 12
KHz that is more audible.

The vast majority of people won't be using a centre
speaker, especially not in the early 80s when they came
out.

I did, at the time.

Does it have a digital out? Surely not.

Right, just analog out.

For casual listening with most speakers and music, its
fine.

BTW you should know that a very high proportion of all
CDP101s contained chips that slowly failed and made them
mistrack just a little, and then later mistrack a lot. In the early
stages of failure, the tracking problems
are subtle and can sound like all sorts of weird things
for different discs and different people.

I can't say I'm interested in buying one, I'd just like
to borrow one for a few days.

I'm not shipping mine! ;-)

I thought it was the drawer mechanism that packed up due
to the grease drying out. They look like they're built
like a tank.

They weigh a lot for their size, and the chassis is packed full of parts.
They run warm and have a relatively large power transformer.

The CDP 101 was very close to being a lab project that went into production
to meet a time table.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger"
"Anton Gÿsen"

What does it sound like and how does it compare to
modern CD players?

It sounds good enough all by itself.


** Sounds good compared to any CD player ever made.


In a close ABX test with certain program material and
speakers you can hear its two most potentially audible
failings:


** In fact, they are almost never audible to anyone and
in no way constitute "failings".


(1) It uses analog filters whose response gets a little
weird and rolled-off above about 15 KHz.


** Arny should get an prize for his use of * purple
prose* # .

Sony CDP101s have a FLAT response +0 / - 0.5 dB out
to the limits of audibility.

Not true of the samples I've tested.

(2) It has only one DAC that is time shared between the
two output channels.

** It has one converter IC, but that IC is internally
a stereo DAC.

Nope, check the service manual.

If there were two independent DACs, why would there be an inter-channel
delay?

The inter-channel delay is only 11.3 uS which is equal to
1/8 inch path difference between ears and speakers. IOW
non audible.

True in general for stereo speakers, but with an electrically-summed center
channel...

So, particularly if you have a center channel speaker
driven by the two channels summed, there is an
additional roll-off above about 12 KHz that is more
audible.

** Complete ******** !!

I measured it and ABX'd it.

Falsely assumes the machine is playing a MONO disk with L
and R channels *in perfect level and phase match* out to
20 kHz - something only available from a test CD.

Or a music CD with music panned to the center.

For casual listening with most speakers and music, its
fine.

** For the *most serious of listening* with the best
available speakers ( ie Quad ESL63s & subsequent models
) it is more than fine.

Yes, that avoids the center channel problem.

BTW you should know that a very high proportion of all
CDP101s contained ....

** Note Arny's concealed use of the past tense.

The ICs concerned ( dual power op-amps ) all failed in
the first year or two of life - so any CDP101 still
working has had them replaced long ago with another type
that simply does not have the problem.

At least 3 of 5 CDP 101s belonging to various close friends had to have
these chips replaced to retain good tracking. The other 2 guys *upgraded* to
newer players relatively early on in the game. I think I used mine steadily
for 8 years before replacing it.

David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
m...
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
m...
Can you not connect the Marantz via analogue, and compare that with your
super sound digital? I don't think you'd expect a difference - never
know though.

Errr..... isn't that exactly what he said he'd done?

David.

From Serge's post:

"My Meridian 206 is being used purely as a transport, feeding SP-DIF
directly into my loudspeakers. The CD63's analogue outputs are going
through an ADC then on to the loudspeakers, so I'm comparing a transport
with a complete unit, redigitised."

So, no.

Oh blimey!. Serge said that his speakers ONLY have digital inputs,

quote
Perhaps I should add my 'speakers are Meridian DSP5000/1500s, so they only
have SP-DIF inputs.
unquote

You even included that part in your previous post,so you must have seen it.
It follows, therefore, that an entirely analogue path from CD player to
speakers is not possible. What Serge did was to take the *analogue* output
of the Marantz and reconvert to digital purely in order to get it into his
speakers.

It seems plain enough to me!

Ah yes, fair enough, got it now!

Rob

"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison" "Anton Gÿsen"


(1) It uses analog filters whose response gets a little
weird and rolled-off above about 15 KHz.


** Arny should get an prize for his use of * purple
prose* # .

Sony CDP101s have a FLAT response +0 / - 0.5 dB out
to the limits of audibility.

Not true of the samples I've tested.


** Fraid it IS true.



(2) It has only one DAC that is time shared between the
two output channels.

** It has one converter IC, but that IC is internally
a stereo DAC.

Nope, check the service manual.

If there were two independent DACs,


** The IC is a Sony CX20017 which has current outputs for L and R on pins 18
& 17 respectively.

The inter-channel delay is only 11.3 uS which is equal to
1/8 inch path difference between ears and speakers. IOW
non audible.


So, particularly if you have a center channel speaker
driven by the two channels summed, there is an
additional roll-off above about 12 KHz that is more
audible.

** Complete ******** !!

Falsely assumes the machine is playing a MONO disk with L
and R channels *in perfect level and phase match* out to
20 kHz - something only available from a test CD.

Or a music CD with music panned to the center.


** Purest gobbledegook.


# from Wiki:

" Purple prose is a term of literary criticism used to describe passages, or
sometimes entire literary works, written in prose so overly extravagant,
ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw attention to itself. Purple
prose is sensually evocative beyond the requirements of its context. It also
refers to writing that employs certain rhetorical effects such as
exaggerated sentiment or pathos in an attempt to manipulate a reader's
response. "

Arny does never informs - he manipulates.



..... Phil