Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
My experience of life is that there is usually a gap between what people
think they can do and what they actually can do - especially when it
comes to anything to do with the senses, which I believe are easily
fooled.

Right. Back to your milkman again.

I've had a lot of fun in the recent past with stuff like turning
speakers back to front while the listener was listening blindfolded,
fading sources playing the same thing, fading speaker/amplifier pairs
on a shared source &c. - I didn't keep records or compile stats, but
I'd say as a rule of thumb more than 90% of people have no idea after
even only a short while when making direct AB comparisons and that such
comparisons are a waste of time for anything other than night and day
differences.

You've already said that listening to your music in another room from your
speakers sounds just fine to you.

If/when I have to choose between two bits of kit I just use them both,
swap them in and out over a period of time and see which wins. As to
*untrained* people being able to spot the difference in the musical
instruments you mention in the manner you describe, my money would be
on very few (if any) people outside the music or recording professions
being able to do it.....

Being able to identify instruments (or whatever) in a mix is one of the
most basic requirements of sound mixing.

Erm. That's not what we are talking about. It's a question of perception.
The contention is that considerable application is required to learn to
differentiate between two instruments with the same fundamental and
fairly similar harmonic structure to their envelope.

You have to know which fader requires a waggle.

"Waggle??" It's a very good thing you never progressed
to music mixing, Dave:-))


Cheers

Iain
Relativity for musicians E = Fb

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

" "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Can you, Iain?



The prof at the Tonmeister exam was satisfied that I could:-)


Yet another monotonous *Iain shreds Poochie with consummate ease again*
post....

If it can be done it's a statement of arrogance to assume others can't.

Of course they can:-) Many have been trained to do so,
as a part of a specialised curriculum. Have you tried?

My neighbour is a specialist in cranial surgery - it would be
presumptious of me (or you too for that matter, Dave) to
assume that either of us can perform the same feats as he.


My experience of life is that there is usually a gap between what people
think they can do and what they actually can do - especially when it comes
to anything to do with the senses, which I believe are easily fooled.

I've had a lot of fun in the recent past with stuff like turning speakers
back to front while the listener was listening blindfolded, fading sources
playing the same thing, fading speaker/amplifier pairs on a shared source
&c. - I didn't keep records or compile stats, but I'd say as a rule of
thumb more than 90% of people have no idea after even only a short while
when making direct AB comparisons and that such comparisons are a waste of
time for anything other than night and day differences.

If/when I have to choose between two bits of kit I just use them both,
swap them in and out over a period of time and see which wins. As to
*untrained* people being able to spot the difference in the musical
instruments you mention in the manner you describe, my money would be on
very few (if any) people outside the music or recording professions being
able to do it.....

Yes. Even though the ear is a delicate and perceptive instrument, it can be
easily fooled. It is necessary to listen to a pair of speakers/amp
combination in a particular room for an extended period of time
with a large range of material to become aware of their strengths
and weeknesses.

Andy made an interesting post on this subject some time ago.
He stated the crux of the matter to be a difference in timbre, which
is exactly the parameter used in instument recognition/differentiation.

Iain
Relativity for musicians E = Fb

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Being able to identify instruments (or whatever) in a mix is one of the
most basic requirements of sound mixing.

Erm. That's not what we are talking about. It's a question of
perception. The contention is that considerable application is required
to learn to differentiate between two instruments with the same
fundamental and fairly similar harmonic structure to their envelope.

So identifying different instruments in a mix? If the instruments you're
talking about are playing solo and you wish to identify them it becomes
merely a technical exercise.

You have to know which fader requires a waggle.

"Waggle??" It's a very good thing you never progressed
to music mixing, Dave:-))

You need to get out more if you've not heard that expression.

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Waggle??" It's a very good thing you never progressed
to music mixing, Dave:-))

You need to get out more if you've not heard that expression.

Just come back from Cuba. One can't "get out more"
than that :-)

But still no "fader waggling" there either. It sounds like a
derogatory term used by those who don't know any better:-)

Iain
Relativity for musicians: E = Fb

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Waggle??" It's a very good thing you never progressed
to music mixing, Dave:-))

You need to get out more if you've not heard that expression.

Just come back from Cuba. One can't "get out more"
than that :-)

But still no "fader waggling" there either. It sounds like a
derogatory term used by those who don't know any better:-)


Iain, don't you get weary of handing Poochie his arse in a handbasket...??

:-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote


If/when I have to choose between two bits of kit I just use them both,
swap them in and out over a period of time and see which wins. As to
*untrained* people being able to spot the difference in the musical
instruments you mention in the manner you describe, my money would be on
very few (if any) people outside the music or recording professions being
able to do it.....

Yes. Even though the ear is a delicate and perceptive instrument, it can
be
easily fooled. It is necessary to listen to a pair of speakers/amp
combination in a particular room for an extended period of time
with a large range of material to become aware of their strengths
and weeknesses.


Absolutely.


Andy made an interesting post on this subject some time ago.
He stated the crux of the matter to be a difference in timbre, which
is exactly the parameter used in instument recognition/differentiation.


Once the basic criteria have been met, exceptional tone and timbre is what
makes the difference and *sets the price* of a musical instrument (and a
pair of speakers)!! Which reminds me there was a fatuous remark 'I'm glad I
don't let my music choose my speakers' (or somesuch) from a certain quarter,
here recently - at the time, far too silly to merit a response!

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
But still no "fader waggling" there either. It sounds like a
derogatory term used by those who don't know any better:-)

True - I'd not expect those with an overblown sense of their own
importance to use it.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Andy made an interesting post on this subject some time ago.
He stated the crux of the matter to be a difference in timbre, which
is exactly the parameter used in instument recognition/differentiation.


Once the basic criteria have been met, exceptional tone and timbre is what
makes the difference and *sets the price* of a musical instrument (and a
pair of speakers)!!

Yes indeed.

I tend to evaluate speakers and musical instruments with
the same criteria. It's not at all about "high fidelity" (if it
were, then Tannoy, B+W, JBL etc would all sound the
same) but producing a sound which presents in the best
posible/most pleasing way the music to which you wish
to listen (or in the case of a musical instrument - to play)

Iain
Relativity for musicians E = Fb

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I tend to evaluate speakers and musical instruments with
the same criteria. It's not at all about "high fidelity"

Nothing new there, then, from you.

(if it
were, then Tannoy, B+W, JBL etc would all sound the
same) but producing a sound which presents in the best
posible/most pleasing way the music to which you wish
to listen (or in the case of a musical instrument - to play)

So you don't object to the sound from your 'ideal' instrument being
altered by your loudspeakers?

Thank gawd I don't claim to have passed a 'Tonmeister exam'

Just how many pairs of speakers do you have, Iain, to allow you to
'evaluate' the best ones for a particular task? As many as Kitty?

--
*(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Andy made an interesting post on this subject some time ago.
He stated the crux of the matter to be a difference in timbre, which
is exactly the parameter used in instument recognition/differentiation.


Once the basic criteria have been met, exceptional tone and timbre is
what makes the difference and *sets the price* of a musical instrument
(and a pair of speakers)!!

Yes indeed.

I tend to evaluate speakers and musical instruments with
the same criteria. It's not at all about "high fidelity" (if it
were, then Tannoy, B+W, JBL etc would all sound the
same) but producing a sound which presents in the best
posible/most pleasing way the music to which you wish
to listen (or in the case of a musical instrument - to play)


Of course.

What never ceases to amaze me that there are those who don't seem to realise
that *no* speaker produces sound without colouring it and all instruments
produce a unique sound (timbre) - the trick is to get the most effective
combination that gives the most acceptable result.

What also amazes me is that they also don't seem to realise that some
speakers do a better job with some material than others. Usually, these are
the clowns who are *playing it safe* with some popularly-accepted
brand/model that will set all the heads nodding with approval down at the
Old Women's Club. (I suspect you could guess most of the makes that will
feature in the front line and you may depend they will be used with material
that is all of a muchness.)

I have tried and compared a good many different speakers on material that
the 'Old Women' here have probably *never heard* to end up with the speakers
I choose to use today. Oddly enough (but perhaps no surprise) the greater
the number of speakers you try (and mention), the more it will bring
caustic/sarcastic remarks from one here. (??)

Whatever.

The important thing is either to select a sound which, as you say, is
pleasing to you, or simply get used to the speakers you have - sooner or
later, they will imprint their own *sound* as 'normal'.