Keith G wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Nothing wrong with balanced of course - it's the pro standard -
but a bit OTT for domestic use.

Not at all. A balanced input and output can be made for mere pence
more than unbalanced ones and can solve a whole host of problems.

Mere pence when you include decent XLRs? Love to know where you buy
them for that...

Do you know how cheap the Chinese copy XLRs are now ? They're perfectly
decent for the job. A tiny fraction of the cost of an idiotic Monster
etc cable with an equally idiotic RCA connector on the end of it.

Agreed. However, the panel footprint of an XLR is not inconsiderable.

That's true but how much of a rear panel is actually occupied ? How about
relegating RCAs to what they were designed for, i.e. phono cartridge
connectors,
and use XLRs ( or optical / BNC coax for digital ) for quality sources.

You can forget optical and co-ax for HD audio input and output on current AC

AV ?


amps: DD Plus; DTS-HD (HRA and MA) and m/c LPCM needs an HDMI connection, as
per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/SonyRearFlash.jpg

Well, the video could be on BNCs which needn't be that expensive either ( think
of how many used to be used in networking ) so you'd only need a few XLRs.

Does Russ Andrews offer £1000 HDMI cables yet btw ? I wonder how long those tiny
connectors will last too.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

"Eeyore" wrote


That's true but how much of a rear panel is actually occupied ? How
about
relegating RCAs to what they were designed for, i.e. phono cartridge
connectors,
and use XLRs ( or optical / BNC coax for digital ) for quality sources.

You can forget optical and co-ax for HD audio input and output on current
AC

AV ?


Yes - slip o' the wrist....



amps: DD Plus; DTS-HD (HRA and MA) and m/c LPCM needs an HDMI connection,
as
per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/SonyRearFlash.jpg

Well, the video could be on BNCs which needn't be that expensive either
( think
of how many used to be used in networking ) so you'd only need a few XLRs.


The trouble with those connectors and co-ax/optical digital connections (I
gather) is they can't deal with the bandwidth required for 7.1 channels of
'HD' sound or digital video.

We were watching some of the newly-remastered 'True HD' Star Trek tonight
and the 'behind the scenes' stuff was fascinating - apart from the obvious
work done on the video, the re-working and *re-recording* of much of the
audio has been superb! I can't demonstrate 'before and after' of any of the
audio, but I can show these snaps taken of the screen showing a split
'before and after' image (which was well over 4 feet tall):

[OT whiners look away now]

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/StarTrek1200-1.jpg

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/StarTrek1200-2.jpg

.....to give you an idea! :-)



Does Russ Andrews offer £1000 HDMI cables yet btw ?


No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised.


I wonder how long those tiny
connectors will last too.


Forever, if they are used as they are intended - ie pull 'em out and plug
'em back in once a year to maintain a good contact (about a single strand's
worth - where they touch, I expect)....

Serge Auckland wrote:

The only part of domestic equipment that would benefit from balanced
connection IS the phono cartridge, so that at least should be connected with
XLRs. For everything else, crappy phonos is OK, if you don't have to change
connections frequently.

That shows a STAGGERING lack of knowledge of the realities of audio and the
environment in which it operates.

Notably with modern equipment it is totally untrue of those using switch-mode
PSUs which invariably inject leakage currents at mains frequencies and harmonics
into audio connections ( regardless of whether the unit is Class I - earthed )
or Class II - double insulated ). i.e. 2 or 3 pole mains connector.

Even an unbalanced wire badly routed WILL pick up hum where the balanced one
won't ( to the linit of the common-mode rejection ration of the equipment ). I
came across an extraordinary example of this last year where a system upgrade
had been installed by an idiot.

I would elaborate now but you could do worse than go to Jensen Transformer's
site and download Bill Whitlock's paper on the use of balanced connections.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

David Looser wrote:

"Serge Auckland" wrote

The only part of domestic equipment that would benefit from balanced
connection IS the phono cartridge, so that at least should be connected
with XLRs. For everything else, crappy phonos is OK, if you don't have to
change connections frequently.


XLRs are OTT for phono cartridges. At the risk of offending Graham's
sensibilities even more I would suggest that a 5-pin DIN plug is ideal as it
can carry two balanced audio pairs plus an earth connection.

I did actually earlier suggest that an 'improved' DIN plug ( leading earth
contact - better contact material - slightly larger size for ease of soldering -
all metal shell for EMC ) might well fit the bill.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Serge Auckland wrote:
The only part of domestic equipment that would benefit from balanced
connection IS the phono cartridge, so that at least should be connected
with XLRs. For everything else, crappy phonos is OK, if you don't have
to change connections frequently.

Best way is to build the cartridge pre-amp into the deck and feed to the
main preamp at a sensible level and impedance. The pickup is one of those
rare things where the cable characteristics can noticeably effect the
sound.

Exactly what I did almost 40 years ago. And the preamp was in a screened box
directly at the arm base. It was coupled to a 200 ohm load capable line
driver and level control which meant I could attach appropriate headphones
directly too, without powering up other equipment.

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment
to my email address

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Serge Auckland wrote:
Best way is to build the cartridge pre-amp into the deck and feed to
the main preamp at a sensible level and impedance. The pickup is one
of those rare things where the cable characteristics can noticeably
effect the sound.

Agreed. That's what I did with my Linn (Yes, I did succumb in 1976), and
came out at line level, balanced. My current AEG and EMT turntables
have the pre-amp built-in and exit at high level, balanced.

I didn't bother with balanced since raising the level and providing a low
impedance send was perfectly fine for the cable run involved. Using
phonos. ;-)

Twisted pairs ( oops balanced thinking again ) helps a LOT ! Think of the
phone system ( and ADSL ).

Graham

due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment
to my email address

Laurence Payne wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I agree, decent quality phonos are perfectly up to the job they are designed
for. I'd rather have them than cheap XLRs any day.

WRONG !

By design, an XLR beats an RCA jack any day. It is also inherently designed to
carry a balanced signal with all the attendant advantages that offers.

Only the way a truck beats a bicycle.

Utter nonsence. In today's EMI rich environment, the argument for balanced
operation could never be stronger.

I guess you don't design, maintain and repair studios where even poor application
of balanced circuits can lead to problems with today's high S/N ratio equipment.

Graham

p.s. are you a pipe and slippers man ? ;~) Things have changed a LOT
since you learnt your trade ! The things I could tell you.

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to my
email address

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
Eeyore wrote:

Mere pence when you include decent XLRs? Love to know where you buy
them for that...

Do you know how cheap the Chinese copy XLRs are now ? They're perfectly
decent for the job.

My experiences of cheap XLRs isn't positive - I tend to stick to Neutric.
But then they're used for the purpose intended.

The Neutrik clone XLRs are IME pretty good. Never saw one fail, although
I've seen the cables they are attached to fail many times.

I've actually NEVER seen a bad 'copy' XLR, certainly compared to certain other
styles of connector around.

Plugging them in and out HUNDREDS of times might wear the contacts but just try
that with an RCA ! I have some XLR leads here that are nearly 40 years old and
still in perfect working order, despite HUNDREDS of times being used.

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

Keith G wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Well, the video could be on BNCs which needn't be that expensive either
( think of how many used to be used in networking ) so you'd only need a few
XLRs.

The trouble with those connectors and co-ax/optical digital connections (I
gather) is they can't deal with the bandwidth required for 7.1 channels of
'HD' sound or digital video.

Possibly true of low quality 'multi-mode' plastic fibre but real 'graded index'
glass fibres are good for GHz or whatever. It's what the 'net' runs on.

Furthermore the BNC was designed from the outset as an wide bandwidth, low
reflection RF connector, the RCA was most certainly not. It's one of those "you
can get away with it - just" situations. Why do you think broadcast kit is all
BNC for video ?

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
I've seen some excellent ones ( gold-plated at stupidly low prices )

ITYM gold coloured? ;-)

Strangely Neutric

Neutrik


seem to manage pretty well without.

They make gold plated ones too. Look in the catalogue. I've probably even
got a few here. Usually in the black finish shell.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address