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On 28/08/09 18:01, in article , "Geoff
Mackenzie" wrote:


"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/09 15:47, in article , "David
Looser" wrote:

(...)

Not anything, certain job titles, such as "architect" are reserved to
those
with appropriate qualifications. Though I agree that the term "engineer"
isn't one of them.

It is in most countries. In some countries, it's even used as a honorific,
similar to "Dr." or "MD" for doctors.

Curious, that. My late pa-in-law was hugely qualified, greatly respected in
his profession (he was an aeronautical engineer) but when he signed my
wedding certificate as "engineer" I would swear the Vicar looked for the
gease under his fingernails....

Considering we (in England) engendered the industrial revolution, I do
wonder why we don't give the term "engineer" the respect it deserves.

I suspect the explanation is linguistical. The word "engine". In French
"engin" means "device", and in German, there is no direct descendant of the
the latin "ingenium". Both languages translate the English "engine" into
either "motor" or "machine", depending on context.


--
Joe Kotroczo

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David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
om...
And qualifications are not required to gain chartered engineering status
in a number of fields -

Well of course chartered status is a qualification in itself, but I am not
aware of any body that will award chartered status without the candidate
already having appropriate academic qualifications. Perhaps you can
elaborate if you believe otherwise.


To become a chartered engineer, you'd need to demonstrate a number of
competencies. Formal qualifications are one, but not the only, way to
demonstrate some of them. I think perhaps if you'd written a book or
acted a consultant, that type of thing.

Not really related, I've just had a look at the Institute of Sound and
Communications Engineers - absence of quals is not a bar to membership.
I would have thought that to be a Royal Engineer you wouldn't need
formal qualifications - don't know though.

Rob

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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Arkansan Raider wrote:
It's been my experience that the guy pushing faders is generically
called the "sound engineer," and that is fully interchangeable in common
usage with "sound man" or "sound guy."

Yes, this is not legal in Virginia. The Society of Broadcast Engineers is
currently petitioning the state to make an SBE certification or an old FCC
First Phone License a legal identification to call yourself a broadcast
engineer, however.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I won't be making that mistake
again.

I have had folks get into big trouble with it when bidding for state
contracts.

To be honest, I don't know why I didn't think about that before. I don't
call my professors "Doctor" unless they've earned that degree.

"You can call me doctor, but you'd be wrong because I have a Master's
degree. You can call me professor but you'd be wrong there too because
I'm a lecturer. So call me Colonel."
-- Col. Pasafiume

People get touchy about these kinds of things.
--scott

No joke, there.

I'm not big into titles myself, but if someone earned it, that's how I'm
addressing them unless they tell me otherwise.

Simple matter of respecting the work involved.

JMHSO

---Jeff

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"Rob" wrote in message
om...

To become a chartered engineer, you'd need to demonstrate a number of
competencies. Formal qualifications are one, but not the only, way to
demonstrate some of them. I think perhaps if you'd written a book or acted
a consultant, that type of thing.

I just love that!, "you think perhaps". Would anyone employ you as a
consultant if you *didn't* have qualifications? As for "writing a book",
well anyone can "write a book", what does it prove?

Not really related, I've just had a look at the Institute of Sound and
Communications Engineers - absence of quals is not a bar to membership.

I've just had a look at their website (having never heard of them before). I
see nothing there that suggests they have the authority to confer Chartered
Engineer status.

I would have thought that to be a Royal Engineer you wouldn't need formal
qualifications - don't know though.

You think they are all squadies?

The days when someone could become a professional engineer simply by
"learning on the job" are well and truly past.

David.

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In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:
It's been my experience that the guy pushing faders is generically
called the "sound engineer," and that is fully interchangeable in common
usage with "sound man" or "sound guy."


I dunno where that expression came from and as a 'sound guy' I still
dislike it. Think it started in the record industry.

To me, engineering is where they fix things or actually design the nuts
and bolts of an installation, etc. A totally separate area - although of
course there are overlaps.

I prefer the generic title of operator. As I use equipment - not
basically design or repair it. Of course you may have to do front line
repairs and hopefully have an input to the design. But as a secondary
function.

And before anyone starts I have the highest regard for the engineers I
work with 'keeping the show on the road' And of course any operator will
likely get better results if he has basic knowledge of the equipment he
uses - as indeed must an engineer of how it is used if designing or
repairing, etc.

--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:
It's been my experience that the guy pushing faders is generically
called the "sound engineer," and that is fully interchangeable in common
usage with "sound man" or "sound guy."


I dunno where that expression came from and as a 'sound guy' I still
dislike it. Think it started in the record industry.

To me, engineering is where they fix things or actually design the nuts
and bolts of an installation, etc. A totally separate area - although of
course there are overlaps.

I prefer the generic title of operator. As I use equipment - not
basically design or repair it. Of course you may have to do front line
repairs and hopefully have an input to the design. But as a secondary
function.

And before anyone starts I have the highest regard for the engineers I
work with 'keeping the show on the road' And of course any operator will
likely get better results if he has basic knowledge of the equipment he
uses - as indeed must an engineer of how it is used if designing or
repairing, etc.


Outstanding post, Dave.

---Jeff

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David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
om...
To become a chartered engineer, you'd need to demonstrate a number of
competencies. Formal qualifications are one, but not the only, way to
demonstrate some of them. I think perhaps if you'd written a book or acted
a consultant, that type of thing.

I just love that!, "you think perhaps". Would anyone employ you as a
consultant if you *didn't* have qualifications? As for "writing a book",
well anyone can "write a book", what does it prove?
Not really related, I've just had a look at the Institute of Sound and
Communications Engineers - absence of quals is not a bar to membership.

I've just had a look at their website (having never heard of them before). I
see nothing there that suggests they have the authority to confer Chartered
Engineer status.

I would have thought that to be a Royal Engineer you wouldn't need formal
qualifications - don't know though.

You think they are all squadies?

The days when someone could become a professional engineer simply by
"learning on the job" are well and truly past.

David.



Meh? I don't think so. You understudy another PE ( in a
discipline) for a year, then take a test in the discipline.

The BS degree just helps HR sort resumes...

--
Les Cargill

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Les Cargill wrote:

Meh? I don't think so. You understudy another PE ( in a
discipline) for a year, then take a test in the discipline.

The problem with the PE test for many years was that it was not specific
to any discipline and was in fact very heavy on mechanics and civil
engineering stuff. So if you were an electrical engineer and wanted to
work as a PE, you had to take a test on truss loads and steam pressures.

I am told that these days the test has been broken up somewhat and that
there is now a specific EE option, although folks from other engineering
disciplines (anything from textile or ceramic engineering to aero) still
have to calculate soil erosion.

The BS degree just helps HR sort resumes...

Yes, and the BS degree is worth more than the PE in a lot of cases.
So while in theory you could cram for the PE and pass it without a
degree, it wouldn't be all that easy to get a job that way.

The guy who does my contract work, though, never got a law degree.
He apprenticed with a lawyer back in the fifties, studied a lot,
and passed the bar exam. That's not very common today but it used
to be very common a century ago.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
om...
To become a chartered engineer, you'd need to demonstrate a number of
competencies. Formal qualifications are one, but not the only, way to
demonstrate some of them. I think perhaps if you'd written a book or acted
a consultant, that type of thing.

I just love that!, "you think perhaps".

Yes.

Would anyone employ you as a
consultant if you *didn't* have qualifications?

I'd much prefer that they had experience of doing the job I had in mind.

As for "writing a book",
well anyone can "write a book", what does it prove?

I should have spelled it out for you. The book would have to be cognate,
and thereby act in lieu of formal qualifications (such as a degree).

Not really related, I've just had a look at the Institute of Sound and
Communications Engineers - absence of quals is not a bar to membership.

I've just had a look at their website (having never heard of them before). I
see nothing there that suggests they have the authority to confer Chartered
Engineer status.


I'm going to have to go quite slowly in future! I used the phrase 'not
really related', and thought it might be of interest in a general
discussion about qualifications on an audio NG.

I would have thought that to be a Royal Engineer you wouldn't need formal
qualifications - don't know though.

You think they are all squadies?


No. I'm not sure what makes you ask that question.

The days when someone could become a professional engineer simply by
"learning on the job" are well and truly past.


If attitudes like yours prevail, then yes.

Rob

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"Rob" wrote in message
om...
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
om...
To become a chartered engineer, you'd need to demonstrate a number of
competencies. Formal qualifications are one, but not the only, way to
demonstrate some of them. I think perhaps if you'd written a book or
acted a consultant, that type of thing.

I just love that!, "you think perhaps".

Yes.

Would anyone employ you as a
consultant if you *didn't* have qualifications?

I'd much prefer that they had experience of doing the job I had in mind.

They need both. Of course nobody will employ you as a consultant straight
out of uni. But you aren't going to be able to do the job (to gain that
experience) until you have the necessary theoretical knowledge.

As for "writing a book",
well anyone can "write a book", what does it prove?

I should have spelled it out for you. The book would have to be cognate,
and thereby act in lieu of formal qualifications (such as a degree).

Again, just as with the consultancy you'd need to have a deep knowledge of
the subject before any book you wrote would carry the sort of credibility
needed for that. And deep knowledge starts with learning the existing state
of the art. The self-taught aren't going to have that.

Not really related, I've just had a look at the Institute of Sound and
Communications Engineers - absence of quals is not a bar to membership.

I've just had a look at their website (having never heard of them
before). I see nothing there that suggests they have the authority to
confer Chartered Engineer status.


I'm going to have to go quite slowly in future! I used the phrase 'not
really related', and thought it might be of interest in a general
discussion about qualifications on an audio NG.

We were talking about chartered status, why mention a body that cannot award
chartered status?

I would have thought that to be a Royal Engineer you wouldn't need
formal qualifications - don't know though.

You think they are all squadies?


No. I'm not sure what makes you ask that question.

Because the only people in the army without formal qualifications are the
squadies.

The days when someone could become a professional engineer simply by
"learning on the job" are well and truly past.


If attitudes like yours prevail, then yes.

Whilst I guess from your attitude that you'd be happy to be operated on by
an unqualified surgeon, travel in an airliner flown by a self-taught pilot
and be defended in court by someone who learned his law from a book bought
in a second-hand book shop.

These days formal training is a necessary preliminary to employment in *any*
profession. And that includes engineering.

David.