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"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Powell" wrote in message
...


I've seen a number of bull-**** artists like you over
the last dozen years on USEnet. **** off tea bag.


Ah, at last Powell is showing us his true colours. The
bull**** was entirely your own.


Some of us have been familair with Powell's antics for well over decade and
across several Usenet forums.

Some things never seem to change.

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In article ,
Laurence Payne wrote:
You can argue about the utility of courses such as Full Sail offers.
But they aren't "Media Studies". If you're not clear what that term
means, Wikipedia describes it quite well.

Oh I know. I was using 'meja studies' to cover anything to do with
broadcasting and recording etc - as I said they are relatively new.

Nice wriggle! I suppose it's also OK to "use" reverb to mean echo
(no, hold on, they're too close), blue to mean green (that's better!)

Most of the youngsters I come in contact with come from either
Ravensbourne (which does dozens of different courses) and the occasional
Tonmeister from Guildford.
If you can suggest a better term for the courses this sort of
establishment run I'd be happy to use it.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:25:53 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You can argue about the utility of courses such as Full Sail offers.
But they aren't "Media Studies". If you're not clear what that term
means, Wikipedia describes it quite well.

Oh I know. I was using 'meja studies' to cover anything to do with
broadcasting and recording etc - as I said they are relatively new.

Nice wriggle! I suppose it's also OK to "use" reverb to mean echo
(no, hold on, they're too close), blue to mean green (that's better!)

Most of the youngsters I come in contact with come from either
Ravensbourne (which does dozens of different courses) and the occasional
Tonmeister from Guildford.
If you can suggest a better term for the courses this sort of
establishment run I'd be happy to use it.

Pick one (if you don't like "tonmeister"). Feel free to mis-spell and
otherwise mock it. But you can't have "Media Studies". That's
already taken, and means something quite different.

(You can't have "Home Econonics" or "Nuclear Physics" either, for the
same reason.)

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"Rob" wrote in message
om...
David Looser wrote:

How are they going to know how to find and use resources? Are you
suggesting that "technical people" are born with this innate ability?, or
do they absorb it with their Mother's milk?


It's not innate. People do read, watch, listen and learn you know.

Read what?, watch what?, and listen to what?

An uneducated person is unlikely to have the opportunity to do any of those
things.

Some of my more awkward teaching moments arise with councillors. Two
spring to mind in the last couple of years - barely an O level between
them but with technical skill and ability well beyond mine - and that's
level 7 in this particular field. My role is relegated to trying to make
them fit within the constraints of a curriculum - one of the few times I
have to answer the question 'Why?' with 'Because I say so'. If they want
the qualification they're going to have to do as I advise. Not big or
clever, I know.


I really didn't understand much of that. By "councillors" do you mean people
who are members of county and district councils? Why would they be expected
to have technical skills? You say they have "technical skill and ability
well beyond mine". What skills? The word "technical" covers a multitude of
different things. In the world of audio, for example, there are "technical"
skills, such as using a soldering iron, that don't require higher education,
and skills such as those shown by Jim that, except for the rare geniuses of
this world, do. And I have no idea of what "level 7" means, nor what "field"
you are refering to.

Interestingly and at last research is starting to come out relating to the
myth of working class 'ignorance' - I saw something by Chris Allen at
Salford recently.

Ah!, is this what this is all about? It's all about class.

David.

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Jim Lesurf wrote:
I was/am used to the idea that experimentalists should be able to design,
built, and test their own kit. Not just buy it all from the HP and
Minicircuits catalogue without having a clue how it worked. But so far as
he was concerned a 'graduate' would simply get someone else to do all that
and just step in to take down the results and publish them. Weird.

This is all a very fine idea.... but where do those other people come from?

That's part of the problem, that there are very few actual technicians
being trained today. It's worse in the mechanical world... I think the
average age of the precision machinists at work is about sixty.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
. com...
David Looser wrote:

How are they going to know how to find and use resources? Are you
suggesting that "technical people" are born with this innate ability?, or
do they absorb it with their Mother's milk?


It's not innate. People do read, watch, listen and learn you know.

Read what?, watch what?, and listen to what?

An uneducated person is unlikely to have the opportunity to do any of those
things.

That is the purpose of an apprenticeship. And an apprenticeship IS an
education, and sometimes an excellent one. It doesn't come with a certificate
at the end, though. (Although there are still some craft guilds in some
places that do that.)
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
David Looser wrote:

An uneducated person is unlikely to have the opportunity to do any of
those
things.

That is the purpose of an apprenticeship. And an apprenticeship IS an
education, and sometimes an excellent one.

Indeed. Apprenticeships were an excellent system, and it's a crying shame
that they are so few and far between these days.

It doesn't come with a certificate
at the end, though.

No? Those that I know anything about did. And if it's for anything more than
a purely physical skill it will include class-room tuition at a level
appropriate to the job for which the apprentice is being trained, up to and
including university level.

David.

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In article ,
Laurence Payne wrote:
Most of the youngsters I come in contact with come from either
Ravensbourne (which does dozens of different courses) and the occasional
Tonmeister from Guildford.
If you can suggest a better term for the courses this sort of
establishment run I'd be happy to use it.

Pick one (if you don't like "tonmeister").

Tonmeister is a specific type of course combining audio and music. And not
the most common qualification for starting a career in audio. Given more
work in broadcasting than recording, etc.

Feel free to mis-spell and
otherwise mock it. But you can't have "Media Studies". That's
already taken, and means something quite different.

Hence my use of Meja Studies which you seem to object to. Despite it being
the sort of course many take when they can't think of a better one. ;-)

(You can't have "Home Econonics" or "Nuclear Physics" either, for the
same reason.)

Perhaps it's escaped you that broadcasting is part of the media.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
. com...
David Looser wrote:

How are they going to know how to find and use resources? Are you
suggesting that "technical people" are born with this innate ability?, or
do they absorb it with their Mother's milk?


It's not innate. People do read, watch, listen and learn you know.

Read what?, watch what?, and listen to what?

An uneducated person is unlikely to have the opportunity to do any of
those things.

That is the purpose of an apprenticeship. And an apprenticeship IS an
education, and sometimes an excellent one. It doesn't come with a
certificate at the end, though. (Although there are still some craft
guilds in some places that do that.) --scott

Certainly when I learned my trade in broadcast audio, it was more akin to
an apprenticeship - including one person being personally responsible for
making sure some aspects of training were covered - following a set of
guidelines. No day release to go to college - the BBC instead lumped it
all together in a series of residential courses.
But this all falls apart when organizations like the BBC no longer use
staff for the majority of these jobs - or indeed do the same sort of
training. Which is a disgrace for a publicly funded body.

--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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In article , Scott Dorsey
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I was/am used to the idea that experimentalists should be able to
design, built, and test their own kit. Not just buy it all from the HP
and Minicircuits catalogue without having a clue how it worked. But so
far as he was concerned a 'graduate' would simply get someone else to
do all that and just step in to take down the results and publish them.
Weird.

This is all a very fine idea.... but where do those other people come
from?

That's part of the problem, that there are very few actual technicians
being trained today. It's worse in the mechanical world... I think the
average age of the precision machinists at work is about sixty. --scott

I agree. This is also a worry in the UK in my experience. A serious problem
is that many companies have long ceased taking 'apprenticeship' or similar
practical development seriously. They all tend to fall back on 'poaching
those already trained somewhere else'... which eventually means no-one has
the needed skills and abilities, so there is no-one to poach from someone
else!

The advantage I had in my Uni research groups is that we could employ
people in workshops and labs, and have them develop their skills over the
years by an appropriate combination of doing the work, taking courses,
sitting next to Nellie, etc. This can be slow, and not everyone has the
flair needed for good practical technical skills.

And when someone with practical skills starts to show real talent, you then
need to give them work that stretches their ability so they can progress
and make outstanding things. If you keep them making the same old shmutter
all the time they get bored.

FWIW I used to run my old research group as if it were a small bizness.
Most of the income was from contracts to develop, build, and supply working
kit. Generally to work at levels of performance orders of magnitude better
than the alternatives. This required more than a few 'clever academics with
big brains'. It also needed people with the skills and practical ingenuity
(Engineers) who could make things that no-one else had been able to
actually make. No result, and the customer would have asked where there
money was. Not like the usual UK research grant were you can grab the
money and then say at the end that you didn't do what you'd promised, but
had enjoyed the experience. :-)

So a key part of that was finding talented technical people and giving them
a chance to really show what they could do. If they were good they enjoyed
it, as you might expect.

But I always was a weird 'academic' for the UK, I guess. I used to keep
being nagged by heads of dept because I didn't write many papers (although
my students, etc, did). But the nagging used to soften when they noted the
cashflow. :-)

Alas, in the UK there is a long tradition of 'looking down' on the 'mere
technician'. Hence the crazy attitude of the prof I described. One result
is that school students in the UK feel pushed into 'academic' topics at
school and away from practical skills. This also tends to be reflected in
the schools wanting the 'better results' of having loads of kids going to
Uni rather than going into 'old fashioned' technical areas.

I'd better stop, I'm getting dangeriously near ranting about politics and
how UK goverments, etc, have damaged the real-world skills of many of our
people! :-)

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html