"Rob" wrote in message
om...
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
snip

As far as chartered engineer status is concerned I'm not aware of any
awarding body that doesn't demand both relevant qualifications and proven
experience before conferring the title.

Blimey David, this isn't difficult. Have a look at p.12 of the C.Eng
competency standard. These are examples of non-formal qualifications that
can count in lieu of accredited degrees: Writing a technical report, based
upon their experience, and demonstrating their knowledge and understanding
of engineering principles; Following an assessed work-based learning
programme.

OK I've looked. You are correct that it is not essential to have an
accredited qualification. But I also noticed that it then went on to say
"For CEng registration, this knowledge and understanding is set at Master's
degree level". I wonder how one is going to acquire such knowledge and
understanding without formal training? I suggest that the word "accredited"
is important here. It's not that they expect the self-taught to be able to
take advantage of this route, rather it will be those who's qualifications
are not, for whatever reason, accredited.

If I've got this right the Engineering Council confers the 'Chartered'
bit, and accredits (that is, gives full exemption from written quals), or
recognises (partial exemption) awards.

I'm not sure I follow the above. Accreditation applies to courses and
qualification awarding bodies. Thus a student who takes and passes such an
accredited course has already achieved the qualification part of gaining
CEng status.

Then there's an element of practical experience that EC UK prescribes.

Precisely.


Ah, OK - we can differ on what counts as a profession. I assume therefore
you don't count surveying, law, teaching, planning and accountancy as
'professions'. But you do count flying. And architecture. This isn't
working, is it?

I wonder why you assume I don't count law? Are you suggesting that it's
possible to work as a lawyer without qualifications? And school teachers
must have a teaching qualification (itself equivalent to a first degree) as
well (for secondary school teachers) as a degree in one's specialist
subject.

I'd take it you spit at the mention of 'professional footballer' :-)

The "professions" is a rather old-fashioned notion, long pre-dating
professional footballers. But one can be a "professional" anything if it's
what one does to earn one's crust.


We have processes called APL/APCL/APEL - accreditation for prior
certificated/experiential learning. It's commonly accepted that in a lot
of cases it's actually easier (and in some cases cheaper) to do the
qualification than jump through the accreditation hoops.

I agree, with the proviso that I'd say "most cases", rather than "a lot of
cases"

But I'd stress that I think this system is flawed - it forces a huge
measure of compliance with institutional practice.

I wouldn't disagree with that. The ever increasing tendency to insist that
people hold certificates to be allowed to do what they do is not something I
am entirely happy with. Of course it does weed out the truly incompetent,
but it also inhibits innovation and individuality as well. I recently took a
teaching course (the short one for adult training, not the full
school-teachers course) and I was frankly appalled at the "one size fits
all" mentality of the course syllabus and the accrediting body.

David.

Wecan do it wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
news:si6mm.73140 What I'm trying to get across is that while
the qualification is
necessary, it isn't always, or even often, sufficient.

It'd be nice if you could wash yourself of 'necessary'. When
I left school I worked in a surveying office. After a while
they let me loose and I was out doing surveys, which were
then signed off by a chartered surveyor who'd never seen the
building/land.

In the USA this is called "plan checking" It is illegal and
subjects the licensed party (surveyors are licensed by the
professional engineering boards in USA) to disciplinary action
by the board and could result in criminal liability is someone
is hurt because of your negligence.


While not illegal in the UK (or at least England; Scotland seems to
change by the day), it isn't much more than cheap labour or delegated
trust and responsibility (take your pick). We charged clients many
thousands for reports I'd write from surveys I'd done. This would
include home purchase surveys, but more commonly commercial valuations.
Around £100k pa fees for that type of work IIRC (early-mid-80s).

I got paid £1500pa when I started, and not much more when I left. It was
common knowledge that once you'd 'got your letters' your salary would
increase considerably. Ever one to ride the crest of a wave, by the time
I'd almost qualified I lost interest :-)

But it's the signatory who'd take the liability for professional
negligence/plain bad work. So, they'd be a fool if they didn't take
*any* interest in the paper they were signing, and most were many things
but not fools. I have to say I had a couple of scrapes that nearly got
my boss in deep water.

Rob

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:49:12 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote:

"For CEng registration, this knowledge and understanding is set at Master's
degree level". I wonder how one is going to acquire such knowledge and
understanding without formal training?

Why couldn't you acquire it "on the job"? We're talking about
technical people here. They know how to find and use resources -
probably the same resources they'd study on a formal course.

In article , Arkansan Raider
wrote:
Wecan do it wrote:

ps: There is no PE for a sound guy.



LOL

Roger that.

So is someone who gradgimicates from Full Sail or Berklee with a
recording arts degree considered an operator or tech? Or just an intern?

I've always wanted to spend the time and money for a degree so I can
pour someone's coffee... ;^)

FWIW The UK govenment claim that having a 'degree' boosts lifetime earnings
for UK residents by the order of a couple of hundred thousand pounds [1]
relative to other with the same school results but no degree. However a BBC
Radio 4 program ('More or Less') that looks at the use of statistics
investigated this.

It found what you might expect. That when you take depeciation/inflation
into account and analyse by subject then...

Computer science and physical science/eng/maths grads tend to do rather
better than the generalised average.

....but on average 'art' grads earn over a lifetime *less* if they went to
Uni for a degree.

Moral there somewhere, I guess. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[1] Can't recall the exact figures they said, but they may be on the BBC
website if anyone is curious.

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article ,
Arkansan Raider wrote:
Wecan do it wrote:

ps: There is no PE for a sound guy.



LOL

Roger that.

So is someone who gradgimicates from Full Sail or Berklee with a
recording arts degree considered an operator or tech? Or just an intern?

Most of these 'meja studies' type degrees are relatively new in the scheme
of things. Didn't exist in the UK when I started out.

I've always wanted to spend the time and money for a degree so I can
pour someone's coffee... ;^)

Or ask if you want fries with it. ;-)

Pretty well all the youngsters I come across in my industry these days
have a university or college qualification. But it doesn't seem to mean
they have greater skills where it matters than in olden days - as so much
of the job is learned by hands on experience. Which no academic course can
really provide.

--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:49:12 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote:

"For CEng registration, this knowledge and understanding is set at
Master's
degree level". I wonder how one is going to acquire such knowledge and
understanding without formal training?

Why couldn't you acquire it "on the job"? We're talking about
technical people here. They know how to find and use resources -
probably the same resources they'd study on a formal course.

How are they going to know how to find and use resources? Are you suggesting
that "technical people" are born with this innate ability?, or do they
absorb it with their Mother's milk?

And the reason they can't acquire it "on the job" is that without
qualifications nobody is going to give them a job!

David.

Arkansan Raider wrote:
So is someone who gradgimicates from Full Sail or Berklee with a
recording arts degree considered an operator or tech? Or just an intern?

It's enough for them to get five minutes in front of a console and at
that point it becomes very clear whether they are an operator, tech,
or intern.

I've always wanted to spend the time and money for a degree so I can
pour someone's coffee... ;^)

I get a couple calls a week from kids with shiny new fresh degrees from
the recording trade schools. I ask them if they can solder or read a
conductor's score. I have yet to find any of them who can answer this
well.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Jim Lesurf" wrote

Since my background is in science and engineering,

There are ZERO qualifications, not even a Drivers License,
for someone to call themselves a "Engineer". What kind of
formal education in engineering do you have...
undergraduate/graduate and in what field?

I'm not bothered if you doubt I am 'qualified' or not.

Hehehe, HAHAHA... yea, right!

I've seen a number of bull-**** artists like you over the last
dozen years on USEnet. **** off tea bag.

"Powell" wrote in message
...


I've seen a number of bull-**** artists like you over the last
dozen years on USEnet. **** off tea bag.


Ah, at last Powell is showing us his true colours. The bull**** was entirely
your own.

David.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:55:26 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

Computer science and physical science/eng/maths grads tend to do rather
better than the generalised average.

...but on average 'art' grads earn over a lifetime *less* if they went to
Uni for a degree.

Moral there somewhere, I guess. :-)

Yeah. My brother, with a Classics degree from Oxford, always says his
highest-paid job was when he filled in as a dustman.