Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

If Technics stuff is hard to come by second hand now, I
suggest it's because it was junked when it was replaced
by something newer. Technics was never a prestige brand,
so it never had the second-hand value of, say, Quad or
Leak.


IME Matsu****a products tend to be well-engineered and well made, and this
makes their origional purchasers tend to want to hold onto them.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Bob Latham
wrote:

To cut a long story short I eventually got a Linn LP12, Ittok and
Asak.

Now you can say what you like but the dynamics, imaging and tone of
that thing was/is glorious to my ears. I still have it and still
hugely prefer it to anything I've heard since. That's not to say
that it's not coloration that I like, it may well be but I love it.

OK, thanks for the kind permission, I'll say what I like. :-)

Funny.

Sorry for my schoolboy sense-of-humour, but it was the fact that you'd said
"you can say what you like" that tipped me over into deciding to have some
fun with a reply. :-)

For me the most annoying defect of the LP12/Ittok/Asak was the obvious
mistracking distortion of the Asak. Made things like massed strings
during climaxes at the end-of-side on classical music LPs sound like
sandpaper over rough wood.

I've never noticed any mistaking except on test discs which I was happy
to sacrifice for the sound.

But IIRC you have tended not to listen to kinds of classical music where I
found this annoying. OTOH listening to something like "Mango Crazy" it
wasn't a problem. 8-]

Another guy purchased a Linn (after playing his discs on mine) purely
for the much lower surface noise which baffled him (and me) but was very
noticeable.

A combination of factors like large diameter spherical stylus, low
compliance and high mass can reduce surface noise. Plus things like a
change in signal level or source impedance, depending on the amp, etc.

The same mistracking and high HF distortion probably also gave things
like guitar and other 'impulsive' instruments more 'attack'. Maybe
that's why people who mainly listened to rock/pop liked it.

Possible but it does seem to have better attack it may be a distortion,
don't care, love it.

Fine with me. I'm sure others did/do as well. But I've noticed over the
years that they tended *not* to be people who played classical LPs and
listened to radio 3 and went to classical concerts a lot.


and the way the belt-drive speed wobbled when the sound changed level,

No, not seen/heard that. The turntable is very high mass I would have
thought it was most unlikely to change speed obviously as it has so much
inertia. In fact, that was the claimed reason for the apparently better
dynamics.

Yes. Ivor would say anything. :-)

However the 'high mass' simply means that the rate of change in speed is
lower for a given change in stylus drag. In effect you have a big mass on
an elastic band (the belt). Classic simple harmonic oscillator.

you can end up with a mechanical version of 'smiley eq'

?

to make the sound more attractive to some.

To many, many, many people (all morons of course) I would say. Almost
everyone I knew who was interested in audio got one around 1980 ish.

Can't recall saying any of them were "morons". That may be your opinion,
not mine. :-)

TBH most of the people I knew in audio *didn't* use an LP12. But I am
talking about people involved in manufacture at various companies, not
writers or what KK calls rather oddly 'civilians' - i.e. the people who pay
the wages when they buy things.

I also disliked the various clumsy 'features' of the LP12. Like the
way the lid bumpers tended to keep falling off,

A tiny square of double sided sticky tape.

or the mat stuck to the LP and came away with it when you took off the
LP.

Anti static gun.

Yes. Curious that Linn couldn't arrange for neither to be needed at the
time. Odd advert for superior engineering, I thought. But I also wonder if
such things make nice 'mystic passes' for the 'believers' to learn and use
as part of being 'involved' with the items they have bought rather than the
music. :-)

And the declared 'need' to keep messing about with the deck to keep it
'on song' as the acolytes might have put it.

It did sag a little (over years) and needed a corresponding tightening
of the spring bolts making sure the TT remained level and the P clip was
still free. A half hour job every 3 years or so.

I did oil my Technics deck once. Apart from that it has just worked OK
since I got it. I did go though checking it when I did the 'V15/III versus
newcomers' for HFN a year or two ago and made a load of cartridge
measurements, Seemed fine.

Maybe they improved later, but the early Linn systems I had to use all
seemed to me to be made out of orange boxes, rubber bands, etc. Not
exactly construction I'd have expected for the price.

That I cannot agree with at all. Mine is beautifully made.

They may well have got better in that way.

For me it made the Technics combo sound lifeless, flat and
uninvolving.

I found the Technics and a V15/IIIHE simply lets me enjoy the music on
the LP and not keep hearing obvious added distortions/colourations
from things like the Asak.

After I heard my first moving coil cartridge I couldn't listen to shure
any more. Too dull and too bright at the same time. Seduced by
distortion no doubt but I still enjoyed it more.

No idea if the difference is distortion. The main factors I've noticed is
that the early MCs tended to have poor tracking compared with the V15 and
applied more force to the LP. They would also inject more vibration into
the arm due to the low compliance, etc. And of course with any cart you may
need to take care with the frequency response. The Shures are quite fussy
about the loading impedance used.

I had an Entre, Ortofon MC?? and an Asak. The Ortofon had a fabulous
image beyond anything I've ever heard.

FWIW of the modern carts I tried I liked the Ortofom M2 Black best. Gave
good results. But had a stylus tip with far more mass than the V15 made
decades earlier. Alas, no-one seems to think of tip mass or compliance
these days.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
"David wrote in
message

If Technics stuff is hard to come by second hand now, I
suggest it's because it was junked when it was replaced
by something newer. Technics was never a prestige brand,
so it never had the second-hand value of, say, Quad or
Leak.


IME Matsu****a products tend to be well-engineered and well made, and this
makes their origional purchasers tend to want to hold onto them.


My SL120 still does the job as well as ever.

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Technics direct drive turntables
 

To many, many, many people (all morons of course) I would say. Almost
everyone I knew who was interested in audio got one around 1980 ish.


I messed around with various decks in the 70's/80's and would confirm that
there was a different sound, although perhaps as much due to arm/cartridge
as the deck. But due to the ridiculous Linn/Naim worship in the hi-fi mags
and the "Jehovas Witnesses" approach of their dealers - "if you can't hear
the vast improvement then you just don't understand" - I swore that I would
never, ever buy anything from Linn.

Funnily enough one of the reasons I finally settled on a Michell Gyrodeck,
apart from the aesthetics which you either like or you don't, was what was
intended to be a negative review in one of the comics which tested a variety
of "top-end" decks, arms and cartridges. They didn't like the Gyro, because
the arms/cartridges sounded different when mated to the Gyro. Hang on,
thought I, isn't that the whole point? You should be able to mess around to
your heart's content with arms and cartridge, with the deck itself
contributing absolutely nothing to the sound?

I suppose I have an inherent preference for items designed by experienced
engineers rather than marketing whizzkids. I've still got the Gyro, by the
way, coupled with an SME5 and Transfiguration, which I reckon will see my
ears out.

Geoff

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

snip

Phew is this thread still going?

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

And during late 80's into the 90's there was a "clone" which
seriously "rivalled" (bettered?) the LP12, being also a 3-point
suspended belt drive with changeable armboards, and upgradeable
via an external PSU etc. Made in UK so same costs,
(distribution and retailer mark-up being always the main costs)
but this was 40-50% cheaper!
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

But I stress once again, if you can discern whatever ability
it may possess then thats what is important, but I stand my
ground. It's the cart, and an arm that can track correctly and
alignment, with low resistance tube cabling into a true RIAA
phone stage with correct loading that dictates the sound.
And the Technics can allow all that to function without disruption.

As an icon in the modern gadget/technical world and it's exemplary
engineering and style status, the Science museum here in London
have a pair of SL-1200's on display, this is the actual image of the
Technics examples on display at the Science museum:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/r...g=2&imagepos=2

Technics direct drive turntables
 

Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

And during late 80's into the 90's there was a "clone" which
seriously "rivalled" (bettered?) the LP12, being also a 3-point
suspended belt drive with changeable armboards, and upgradeable
via an external PSU etc. Made in UK so same costs,
(distribution and retailer mark-up being always the main costs)
but this was 40-50% cheaper!
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

As an icon in the modern gadget/technical world and it's exemplary
engineering and style status, the Science museum here in London
have a pair of SL-1200's on display, this is the actual image of the
Technics examples on display at the Science museum:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/r...g=2&imagepos=2


I have a SL120 with SME arm going into a 303/33 Quad powering a pair of
Leak 2075's and, whereas I've heard lots of other nice systems [well
some anyway] it does the job for me.

Never had any trouble with the SL120 since I bought it

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house between
direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler wheels/gears
instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.


And during late 80's into the 90's there was a "clone" which
seriously "rivalled" (bettered?) the LP12, being also a 3-point
suspended belt drive with changeable armboards, and upgradeable
via an external PSU etc. Made in UK so same costs,
(distribution and retailer mark-up being always the main costs)
but this was 40-50% cheaper!
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

As an icon in the modern gadget/technical world and it's exemplary
engineering and style status, the Science museum here in London
have a pair of SL-1200's on display, this is the actual image of the
Technics examples on display at the Science museum:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/r...g=2&imagepos=2


I have a SL120 with SME arm

And it's a goodlooker too!
http://www.vintagetechnics.info/turntables/sl120.htm

But, asthetics of some versions of the LP12, well....
http://www.toffsandtinks.com/shop/im...005217_485.jpg
A replacement hood for an LP12 is a staggering £150.


going into a 303/33 Quad powering a pair of Leak 2075's and, whereas I've
heard lots of other nice systems [well some anyway] it does the job for
me.

Never had any trouble with the SL120 since I bought it

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Technics direct drive turntables
 

David Kennedy said...

I have a SL120 with SME arm going into a 303/33 Quad powering a pair of
Leak 2075's and, whereas I've heard lots of other nice systems [well
some anyway] it does the job for me.

How do you find the 2075's?. I was going to get a pair in 1976 but went
for the 2060's instead, using them with a Pioneer SA 9500
http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/pio/SA9500.html

I thought the treble a bit tizzy, the bass deep but slow and they had a
marvellous midrange.
The were also the most shoddily constructed and assembled piece of kit
I have ever had. One tweeter mounting plate had been miss pressed and
had a large bite out of one corner, the welding on the aluminium grill
surrounds looked like beginners practice pieces and the grills (which
were made from some hideous woven soundproof plastic fibre) detached
themselves from the pressed cardboard former within a fortnight, this
mattered little as the pegs which held the former to the cabinet broke
soon after and the grills and alu surrounds were ditched forever.

About a year after I got them one of the midrange drivers started
screeching badly, rubbing voice coil I think. Being up in Yorkshire at
the time; I took the offending unit to Idle (where Rank/Leak/Whatever
they were named at the time were based). The receptionist took me
through the production area (which was like a scene from Dickens,
really untidy; hand presses and saws, workers with fag hanging from
gobs and cups of tea in hand) to a well equipped lab area helpful chap
attached the offending driver to a signal generator whereupon it duly
screeched. This provoked a cry from the another bench of... "Not
another one buggered! Were any of those bloody things made properly?"

They gave me a replacement driver and also a spare one. Saying "You'll
need it, the other will go soon". Of course it never did and and they
are still going strong in the care of a friend. Who dutifully follows
my instructions and rotates the bass drivers yearly when they sag too
much on the oiled cloth surrounds.


--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

Technics direct drive turntables
 

Fed Up Lurker wrote:
"David wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house between
direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler wheels/gears
instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.


And during late 80's into the 90's there was a "clone" which
seriously "rivalled" (bettered?) the LP12, being also a 3-point
suspended belt drive with changeable armboards, and upgradeable
via an external PSU etc. Made in UK so same costs,
(distribution and retailer mark-up being always the main costs)
but this was 40-50% cheaper!
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

As an icon in the modern gadget/technical world and it's exemplary
engineering and style status, the Science museum here in London
have a pair of SL-1200's on display, this is the actual image of the
Technics examples on display at the Science museum:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/r...g=2&imagepos=2


I have a SL120 with SME arm

And it's a goodlooker too!
http://www.vintagetechnics.info/turntables/sl120.htm

That's the one.

But, asthetics of some versions of the LP12, well....
http://www.toffsandtinks.com/shop/im...005217_485.jpg
A replacement hood for an LP12 is a staggering £150.

No thanks.

going into a 303/33 Quad powering a pair of Leak 2075's and, whereas I've
heard lots of other nice systems [well some anyway] it does the job for
me.

Never had any trouble with the SL120 since I bought it

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com





--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Technics direct drive turntables
 

UnsteadyKen wrote:
David Kennedy said...

I have a SL120 with SME arm going into a 303/33 Quad powering a pair of
Leak 2075's and, whereas I've heard lots of other nice systems [well
some anyway] it does the job for me.

How do you find the 2075's?. I was going to get a pair in 1976 but went
for the 2060's instead, using them with a Pioneer SA 9500
http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/pio/SA9500.html


I like the 2075's although I would prefer to return to the tanoys [BBC
monitors] that I had for a few years. I did try the bass cabinets on
their own and fitted with a monitor gold and that also worked well but
for general use the 2075's do a nice job.

I managed to get hold of a pair of 15" Monitor gold speakers last year
so I just need to sort an enclosure now.

Never heard the 2060's

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com