Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave


Rave?


about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you
(the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so
they tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of
wine-writers language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't
mean a damned thing, but sounds impressive.


Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language - is the use
of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of counter-measure? I use the
language that best describes what I find, others do the same - some wax more
lyrical than others, what's the problem?



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as you
claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Keith G" wrote

As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble. Belt-drives were so much quieter.

Probably measurably true. But in practice I use a GL75 for some years
before I got the Technics DD. So far as I can recall the only audible
differences seemed to me to be attributable to a change of cartridge.

I'd used an M75 (IIRC) with the GL75 and I use a V15/III with the Technics.

Rumble didn't bother me with the GL75. And I did like the speed control and
drive spindle trick.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
David Looser wrote:


Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than
you (the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical
machine that turns any third-rate audio system into a
music machine to satsfy the gods, or so they tell me).

So sorry, simply better. :-)

Unfortunately, unquantifiably so in any technical sense.

The TD125 was a far better product.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language

Ah yes - "bashers". I criticise something to which you have a strong
emotional attachment, so I'm a "basher".

- is the use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of
counter-measure?

Nope, I was using the language that best described what I found.

I use the language that best describes what I find, others do the same -
some wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?

The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and "detail"
appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple machine we are
talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a turntable is when
you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall. OK, I understand
that *you feel* that the music you hear has more impact, tightness and
detail when you use an idler-wheel turntable than one with another type of
drive, which tells us something about you, but nothing about turntables.
If it was an objective fact that idler-wheel turntables had this effect on
music then the belt-drive and direct-drive turntables wouldn't have more or
less wiped out the idler-wheel type they way they have.


The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the UK.
In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:


The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and
"detail" appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple
machine we are talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a
turntable is when you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall.

All remeniscent of the the amplifier PRATs... :-)

....by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm And Timing, of
course. ;-


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the
UK. In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.

Curious that DD and also the 301/401 have come back into fashion in the UK
magazines in recent years. The old saying used to be "The wheel turns" as
various things went in and out of fashion. In this case it seems to be "The
turntables turn" or "turning the turntables". :-)

Whatever, I had a 310 given to me last year. Didn't want it so gave it to a
friend who was happy to play with restoring it. He currently uses one of
the expensive SME turntables, though. I'm still happy enough with the
Technics.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language

Ah yes - "bashers". I criticise something to which you have a strong
emotional attachment, so I'm a "basher".


'Strong emotional attachment'?

Where *do* you get it all from? Or have you always had a tendancy to
exaggerate?



- is the use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of
counter-measure?

Nope, I was using the language that best described what I found.


See above.



I use the language that best describes what I find, others do the same -
some wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?

The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and
"detail"
appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple machine we
are
talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a turntable is
when
you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall.


Bit difficult to argue with this deliberate narrow-mindedness isn't it?


OK, I understand
that *you feel* that the music you hear has more impact, tightness and
detail when you use an idler-wheel turntable than one with another type of
drive, which tells us something about you, but nothing about turntables.


It does - I've been there, done that. I've owned many turntables in my time
and currently have one idler on the go and two DD which are not currently in
use. I've had a number of different belt drives which were very good at the
time but have not lasted with me, which should tell you something - no?


If it was an objective fact that idler-wheel turntables had this effect on
music then the belt-drive and direct-drive turntables wouldn't have more
or
less wiped out the idler-wheel type they way they have.


See below....



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the
UK.
In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.


High quality idler-wheel decks are complicated precision engineering
products which costs a lot more than chucking a mass-produced (Impex?) motor
and a rubber band into a wooden box - inevitable it should lose out in the
long run where price and *marketing* are important factors for survival.

Needless to say, rumble is not a problem with these high quality decks
unless the owner has neglected to let off the transit screws - which is
often the case, I believe, going by the fact that the local shop was happily
shifting a good number of ProJect Debut decks and didn't even know they had
transit screws on them!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in
message
"David Kennedy"
wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers
of the time looking after old pals, and the mythology,
and you have exhausted options and comparisons, then if
you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts. But I'm no fan of
it, and it's not original nor
groundbreaking. It's based on established isolation principles found in
many T/T's from the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many
others) is it's an expensive variation of cheaper
longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house
between direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler
wheels/gears instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.

Actually, the 501 was very similar to the top Garrard changer of the day,
minus arm and mechanism. I believe the model of the corresponding changer
was the RC 88.

No way does the idler provide the same level of isolation as a belt.

Idlers are prone to "flat spots", and are extra problmatical when they
harden up because of the relatively small area that the motor shaft
engages.


Interesting to see these old chestnuts perpetuated: I have never heard of
anyone suffering from either flat spots or hardened drive wheels - happy to
be corrected on either score, of course.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:

So sorry, simply better. :-)

Unfortunately, unquantifiably so in any technical sense.

Did you notice the ":-)"? This was Linn's phrase at the
time and it wasn't me saying it.

The TD125 was a far better product.

In what what way is it "Far better"?

Please see former comments about technical quanitification of performance.

Baring in mind they
are of a similar basic design and that the Linn has had
nearly 40 years of tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for sure that Linn
properly identified and addressed them.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message


Baring in mind they are of a similar basic design and that the Linn
has had nearly 40 years of tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for sure that Linn
properly identified and addressed them.

The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow / magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

Slainte

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf


The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow /
magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

I have not kept up with upgrades and have not purchased anything for my
Linn except replacement lid hinges in what must be 25 years.

I assume *somebody* has been buying all these 'upgrades' and 'tweaks',
otherwise Linn are presumably bonkers to go on producing them.

Undoubtably, the motive for doing this is profit but what is wrong with
that?

Depends what you mean by "wrong". :-)

I can see they want cashflow. That is fair enough. They may well have
decided this was a cheaper way for them to prolong the cashflow without the
bother of having to actually make a newer or better design of TT using
newer or better methods and materials. Indeed, maybe they lacked the skill
or insight to make something better as a design. Or felt they it would be
easier to market such 'mods' to an audience already 'under the spell'.
Maybe they were worried that a new design would not sound exactly like the
LP12 so would then fall foul of the 'flock' I mention below. Maybe they
became trapped by their own PR. Dunno. Can only speculate on their
thinking.

As you have pointed out, you haven't "kept up with upgrades" sic. So they
clearly aren't essential. So maybe it was "wrong" for the punters to feel
they should buy "upgrades" having been presented with the dream of
'nirvana' arriving by FedEx, or via a visit from a dealer to twang their
elastic bands.

Maybe it was "wrong" to spend years pushing the idea that CD was
*inherently* flawed and unlistenable - until Linn made a CD player, and
eventually discs as well. Curious given that their CDs that I've heard do
sound excellent to me.

Maybe it was "wrong" the way a 'flock' of dealers and writers managed to
establish a faith-system that anything that didn't sound the same as the
magic combination must be inferior. And even dismiss things like stereo
imaging when the speakers they made at the time were poor at providing a
stereo image.

To me, it does seem from outside like a spectacularly successful example of
the old marketing/management maxim, "Baloney Baffles Brains", or in modern
terms, "Any old ******** will do".

In itself it doesn't seem odd or to be criticised that a design be made and
sold for many years. The Technics DDs are another example of that. Works
well, made for many years. No stream of audiophile add-on 'upgrades'
though, so far as I know.

And FWIW a lot of the equipment I use is decades old and still works fine.

So was it "wrong"? For Linn, I guess not. But for the rest of UK audio and
many audio enthusiasts... ? Fill in your own answers to that.


Leaving aside for the moment the acoustic value of the changes, it
is nice to feel that you can keep your purchase up to date.

That phrasing implies that being "up to date" may mean more than a
datestamp on a package label. :-)

As regards "still trying to fix the laws", again, what is wrong with
that? It's not perfect, nothing mechanical in the audio world ever is.

That's perhaps why most makers of mechanical devices tend to routinely do
new designs with new materials, techniques, etc. But I'd agree that a TT
for an LP is essentially an 'old fashioned task', so new ideas, etc, might
not be needed. But if so, I wonder why a flow of 'upgrades' would be if the
design was the best in the first place...

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html