Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...


There always has been a divided market, with some listeners demanding
the highest quality possible, and others happy with pretty much
anything

Indeed. It is said that the ratio is now about 20:1 The percentage of
what used to be called "serious listeners" has taken a nose dive.

TBH I doubt that the number of "serious listeners" has even been much
more
than a tiny fraction of the population.

When I lived in the UK, I can remember that every
district had a "gramophone society" I lived in Ealing
before moving to Richmond and was a member of the
Ealing, Acton and Windor societies. Each had a healthy
membership, three or four times the number of people
who post regularly on UKRA :-))

Whilst I would agree that "gramophone societies" have gone the way of all
things, I do not accept that this means that "serious listening" has "taken
a nose dive". People can listen to recorded music at home, they don't need
to go out to do so. But going out to live music events is thriving in the
UK, even within a few miles of my rural home I can think of 5 venues
(churches, village halls etc.) that put on concerts of various musical
genres regularly throughout the year, all of which are very well attended.
Go to the towns and there is a vast range of live music on offer.


However many years ago the minority who became 'hi fi enthsiast' became
noticable enough for some companies to take interest in them. They were
then immersed in a large number for which 'hi fi' was the latest consumer
'must have'... until that particular wave rolled on to other things.


Yes that true, and there was a strong DIY element too.
People used to built speaker, turntable bases, valve
amps etc etc. In these plug and play days, no one
seems to build anything anymore. And as all amps and
CD players sound the same, the only thing the DIY
audiophile can do is to mess about with interconnects:-)


In the early post-war period there was a big interest in DIY construction of
all sorts of electronic equipment. People built their own radios, tape
recorders and TV sets (often from war-surplus parts) and electronic
"novelties" and gadgets as well. But the continual lowering costs of new
equipment, coupled with technological changes that result in increased
complexity and miniaturisation, has made it harder and harder for the DIY
enthusiast to compete with factory-made equipment.

But there is still plenty for the "audiophile" to mess about with. How about
speakers and room acoustics? Often largely forgotten by "audiophiles"
obsessed with the electrical or mechanical bits & pieces, these are what
make the real difference to the sound quality, yet remain within the
competence of the DIY enthusiast.

As far as popularity is concerned, Hi-Fi seems to have
gone the way of the Lindy Hop:-)

Says you.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



This seems to be a storm in a teacup, which is only of interest to a
couple of people on an inconsequential UK newsgroup.

That's odd. I seem to recall it being an issue on a number of websites and
in various magazines. And more than one person making a fuss about it.
Indeed, I think a few years ago one of the speakers at a Uk 'music awards'
ceremony complaining about the obsession with mindless compression and
loudness.

Indeed, the "teacup" seems to quite large.

The "Guitar Hero" case made the national news. I remember it being discussed
on Radio 4 with interviews with disgruntled fans, the playing of "before"
and "after" clips and a discussion between a critic and an industry
spokesman defending the status quo.

The industry defenders view, like Iain's, appeared to be that excessive
compression was a traditional practice which had always been carried out and
so would therefore have to continue to be carried out. (A bit like the
argument of some clergy against having women bishops ;-)

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote


I'm not happy at using a change in format as the way to make this
communication, especially if that leaves CD as the "junk" format destined
to carry all the over-compressed rubbish. CD is a good format, I don't
want to see it thrown away that way.


CD is not a good format other than as a disposable one-time 'carrier'; it
has been superceded by mass storage of 'virtual music' on hard disks and
soon, when the prices drop, large SS storage devices with cards and sticks
for portability. Even the players are been rendered obsolete by the minute
playback devices available today.

The way I see it is, popping CD disks into a player, is an antiquated
practice like playing vinyl but without the extra benefits you get from
vinyl - the better sound, tactile feedback, artwork, words/notes etc.


Already we have people thinking that vinyl must really sound better than
CD


Yep, it does and what I can gather is that view is frequently shared by
youngsters being introduced to LPs for the first time! (I had a good 'for
instance' the other day but I can't remember now where it was!)


because they don't realise that it's the insane mastering of some CDs that
makes them sound like that, not an intrinsic fault with the format. If
your idea was adopted we'd have people convinced that 24bit really does
sound better than 16bit for a similar reason.


Is this compression you are complaining about limited (scuse the pun) to
'heavy' modern pop or is it all over the whole range of music on offer
today? Because if it is, what's the problem? Surely no-one here buys that
sort of stuff, do they?

Modern 'american idol style' *belter* songs are only for the boombox or car
player, surely?

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

Do you? based on what?

because no one has ever asked them.

The fact that people are not aware of the market research and have not
been approached themselves, does not mean that the research has not
been done, and that other people have not been asked in significant
numbers:-)

I notice you included the word "the" in front of market research, as
though there was some, yet you appear not to be aware of any.

So far as I can tell, Iain is simply feeling that said 'research' *must*
exist. i.e. a matter of faith on his part.

Yes That is correct. Otherwise, I cannot see why
on earth anyone should spend hours and many hundreds
of pounds working on a perfectly good studio master to
make it "louder" in a specialised and very expensive suite
set up expressly for that purpose.

Fortunately, I am not involved in such projects and
have little or no contact with labels who produce
such material. If I were/if I did, I would certainly
make it my business to find out what was going on
and why!

This seems to be a storm in a teacup, which is
only of interest to a couple of people on
an inconsequential UK newsgroup.


Exactly.



The situation seems unlikely to change, and so
there seems to be little point in discussing it ad
nauseam.


But that what this group does - try anything to do with the enjoyment of
'hifi' per se and the sounds you get from it and it soon gets ****ed on by a
small group of smartarses* who think they have got the all the answers 'in
the numbers' and who start braying 'you can't alter the laws of physics' or
somesuch with the effect that the 'enthusiasts' all got fed up with hearing
it** and buggered off a long time ago.


*But who, strangely, aren't always able to agree!! ;-)

**I know, a number of them emailed me direct to tell me so!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...


There always has been a divided market, with some listeners demanding
the highest quality possible, and others happy with pretty much
anything

Indeed. It is said that the ratio is now about 20:1 The percentage of
what used to be called "serious listeners" has taken a nose dive.

TBH I doubt that the number of "serious listeners" has even been much
more
than a tiny fraction of the population.

When I lived in the UK, I can remember that every
district had a "gramophone society" I lived in Ealing
before moving to Richmond and was a member of the
Ealing, Acton and Windor societies. Each had a healthy
membership, three or four times the number of people
who post regularly on UKRA :-))


However many years ago the minority who became 'hi fi enthsiast' became
noticable enough for some companies to take interest in them. They were
then immersed in a large number for which 'hi fi' was the latest consumer
'must have'... until that particular wave rolled on to other things.


Yes that true, and there was a strong DIY element too.
People used to built speaker, turntable bases, valve
amps etc etc. In these plug and play days, no one
seems to build anything anymore.


Funny, I did all three things you've mentioned rather 'publically' here and
entertained everyone with my progress - needless to say, the 'gurus' grabbed
every opportunity to hose my efforts and the end results down!

(The really funny thing is my valves/horns homebrew kit has matured nicely
and sounds better than ever! :-)


And as all amps and
CD players sound the same, the only thing the DIY
audiophile can do is to mess about with interconnects:-)


All SS amps sound the same to me but the differences between my SET and PP
valve amps is quite marked. And, of course, no two pairs of speakers sound
the same - even two of the same model will be slightly different from each
other if you get right down into 'gnat's cock' territory where one or two
here seem to spend much/most of their time instead of just bunging the music
on and enjoying it! :-)



As far as popularity is concerned, Hi-Fi seems to have
gone the way of the Lindy Hop:-)


Hifi equipment these days is like modern cars - all very good at what they
do but with no 'character', little or no pride of ownership (after a couple
of weeks) and nothing much else between them to discuss.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Rob" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 03/03/2011 10:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Iain wrote:
USB turntables seem to be quite a "hot" line.

You obviously don't see Maplin 'fliers'. They can't shift the ones they
have.


I did wonder when they'd reach saturation.


Who thinks of Maplins when they go to buy a turntable?



I was round a friend's house the other day and her 16 year old daughter
has just discovered records - gave her a few duplicates I had, Clash, Nina
Simone, sort of mainstream stuff I like.

Two things - she knew the music. That quite surprised me. Couldn't quite
figure out whether she liked it, but that brings me on to the second
thing.

When I asked her why on earth she bothers faffing about with records she
didn't seem that sure. The covers, certainly. She also said she liked the
sound, but couldn't explain why/what which was all the more baffling
because her record player's one of those 70s radiogram type affairs with a
'rich' tone.

Youngsters today, eh? :-)


As I have said elsewhere, I recently saw summat on the box where youngsters
expressed their interest in LPs and also said they preferred the sound but I
can't remember what it was! I remember someone said they liked to be able to
physically 'hold the music' and expressed an opinion that downloads didn't
offer anything like the same satisfaction..??

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote


I'm not happy at using a change in format as the way to make this
communication, especially if that leaves CD as the "junk" format destined
to carry all the over-compressed rubbish. CD is a good format, I don't
want to see it thrown away that way.


CD is not a good format other than as a disposable one-time 'carrier';

Hardly "one-time", CD is a robust medium.

it has been superceded by mass storage of 'virtual music' on hard disks
and soon, when the prices drop, large SS storage devices

Mass storage is useless for selling and transporting and individual albums.

with cards and sticks for portability.

Which are far more expensive.

Even the players are been rendered obsolete by the minute playback devices
available today.

You mean like turntables were 25 years ago?

The way I see it is, popping CD disks into a player, is an antiquated
practice like playing vinyl but without the extra benefits you get from
vinyl - the better sound,

Hah! Quite why some people continue to insist that a *manifestly* poorer
quality medium sounds "better" is a mystery only a psychologist could
answer.

tactile feedback, artwork, words/notes etc.



Already we have people thinking that vinyl must really sound better than
CD


Yep, it does

See above.

Is this compression you are complaining about limited (scuse the pun) to
'heavy' modern pop or is it all over the whole range of music on offer
today? Because if it is, what's the problem? Surely no-one here buys that
sort of stuff, do they?

Well I don't. But plenty has been posted here by both Iain and Jim about
overly compressed CDs.

Modern 'american idol style' *belter* songs are only for the boombox or
car player, surely?


I've no idea what "american idol style' belter songs" sound like. And I
never listen to music in the car. Come to that I hardly ever do on my
kitchen "boombox" either (both are more-or-less permanently tuned to Radio
4) so I'm probably not the person to ask.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

On 04/03/2011 17:29, David Looser wrote:
"Keith wrote in message
...

"David wrote


I'm not happy at using a change in format as the way to make this
communication, especially if that leaves CD as the "junk" format destined
to carry all the over-compressed rubbish. CD is a good format, I don't
want to see it thrown away that way.


CD is not a good format other than as a disposable one-time 'carrier';

Hardly "one-time", CD is a robust medium.


I think it had its uses, and now its time is up. 'One-time' means write
once, not read.

it has been superceded by mass storage of 'virtual music' on hard disks
and soon, when the prices drop, large SS storage devices

Mass storage is useless for selling and transporting and individual albums.


Ha! Have a look at 'iTunes'. Where do you think that music is kept, sold
from and stored to?

with cards and sticks for portability.

Which are far more expensive.

Even the players are been rendered obsolete by the minute playback devices
available today.

You mean like turntables were 25 years ago?


Funny you should say that. Turntables and records, are, in fact still
produced.

The way I see it is, popping CD disks into a player, is an antiquated
practice like playing vinyl but without the extra benefits you get from
vinyl - the better sound,

Hah! Quite why some people continue to insist that a *manifestly* poorer
quality medium sounds "better" is a mystery only a psychologist could
answer.


Yes, it has an oddness. Fact remains though, however uncomfortable that
makes you feel.

/snip remainder of stuck-in-80s stuff/


Rob

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote


I'm not happy at using a change in format as the way to
make this communication, especially if that leaves CD as
the "junk" format destined to carry all the
over-compressed rubbish. CD is a good format, I don't
want to see it thrown away that way.

CD is not a good format other than as a disposable
one-time 'carrier';

Statements like this support the widely held belief that you are totally
nuts, Keith.

it has been superceded by mass
storage of 'virtual music' on hard disks and soon, when
the prices drop, large SS storage devices with cards and
sticks for portability.

Wrong again, it already happened.

Even the players are been
rendered obsolete by the minute playback devices
available today.

You got that right. Portable CD players are falling by the wayside.

The way I see it is, popping CD disks into a player, is
an antiquated practice like playing vinyl but without the
extra benefits you get from vinyl - the better sound,

Better sound? Statements like this support the widely held belief that you
are totally nuts, Keith.

tactile feedback, artwork, words/notes etc.

The mainstream market cares little about these.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


But that what this group does - try anything to do with
the enjoyment of 'hifi' per se and the sounds you get
from it and it soon gets ****ed on by a small group of
smartarses* who think they have got the all the answers
'in the numbers' and who start braying 'you can't alter
the laws of physics' or somesuch.

Contrary to your peculiar beliefs Keith, almost everybody these days manages
to enjoy hifi without messing with tubes or vinyl.