And another one!
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


Turntables, carts and arms are easier to fiddle with and
make a difference than CD players or radio receivers, in
my book. Feel free to disagree.

Beleive it or not, there is more to audio than amplifiers and music
players.

I'm thinking of speakers and rooms, of course.


Geddaway!



And then there are those of us who make recordings of live music in actual
music venues...


And that has to do with what, precisely?

And another one!
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


Turntables, carts and arms are easier to fiddle with and
make a difference than CD players or radio receivers, in
my book. Feel free to disagree.

Beleive it or not, there is more to audio than amplifiers and music
players.

I'm thinking of speakers and rooms, of course.

And then there are those of us who make recordings of live music in actual
music venues...


I missed something from my first response: You need to realise there are
*no* noobies here to impress with such platitudinous claptrap and that we
have all seen it before countless times!

'Audio' is dead; ukra killed it....

:-(

And another one!
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
His problem he has no idea (and probably little or no real experience) -
when does a turntable *ever* come to you properly set up?

That would depend on where you buy it from. Unless of course you consider
your skills way superior to anyone supplying such things.
But pardon me for assuming you were talking about *improving* the
performance of such things - rather than just getting it to work to spec.
As, of course, pretty well any CD player etc does out of the box...

It's almost a
certainty that no eBay or secondhand stuff will be ready to play and I
have even had to go to the local hifi shop more than once to sort out
turntable problems on brand new kit!

There you go again. That perfect vinyl playing equipment is so imperfect
you feel the need to change it often. Same as your speakers and SET amps.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

And another one!
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


His problem he has no idea (and probably little or no
real experience) - when does a turntable *ever* come to
you properly set up?

More to the point, when are you sure that a turntable *is* properly set up?
;-)

And another one!
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
His problem he has no idea (and probably little or no real experience) -
when does a turntable *ever* come to you properly set up?

That would depend on where you buy it from.


I was talking to Rob.


Unless of course you consider
your skills way superior to anyone supplying such things.


Your words, not mine.



But pardon me for assuming you were talking about *improving* the
performance of such things - rather than just getting it to work to spec.


I have *told* you already today: don't assume/presume - *ask*!!



As, of course, pretty well any CD player etc does out of the box...



Which has what to do with anything? - So do microwave ovens, vacuum cleaners
and breadmakers.



It's almost a
certainty that no eBay or secondhand stuff will be ready to play and I
have even had to go to the local hifi shop more than once to sort out
turntable problems on brand new kit!

There you go again. That perfect vinyl playing equipment is so imperfect
you feel the need to change it often.


NO, there *you go again*!

Same as your speakers and SET amps.


I haven't changed anything on *any* of speakers or the SET amp. The only
thing I have changed since I built/fettled my entire setup is a stylus on
the record deck, a set of three miniature valves in the MM phono stage and
swapped the KT88s on my PP amp for a nice set of Sovtek 'pot-bellied'
valves.

But I wouldn't expect that means anything to you..??

Now, seein's as you are a past master at *guessology* - what do you think
this is?

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/DontLook.jpg

:-)

And another one!
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


His problem he has no idea (and probably little or no
real experience) - when does a turntable *ever* come to
you properly set up?

More to the point, when are you sure that a turntable *is* properly set
up? ;-)



Och, dinna fash yersel ma wee bonnie laddie - ah ken well enough from whit
my ain eyes see an' whit guid sound ma ain ears hear!

;-)

And another one!
 

"Keith G" wrote

WTF is that all about?


Psychology, but you wouldn't understand.


Maybe not (and maybe I do* ;-)

With respect Keith "WTF is that all about?" is not the response of someone
who does understand.

but your big mistake is, like someone else here, you so think that you
know everything you make wild, arrogant presumptions.

Post one sentence that shows you *do* understand, and I'll withdraw my
comment.

You don't even get off the starting block on the right foot! See my other
post - trust that I am quite able to solicit useful opinions without
colouring my subjects responses or when I suspect the subject's response
is 'colored' I am quite able to discard the opinion given.

I wouldn't trust *anybody* to be able do that, nor would I trust *any*
opinion given in response to solitication under such circumstances.


*Or my partner who has a Psychology MA probably would be able to! ;-)

Then get her to explain to you why opinions of sound quality solicited by or
from anybody who has invested time, effort or money in the system under
scrutiny are worthless.

David.

And another one!
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote



*Or my partner who has a Psychology MA probably would be able to! ;-)

Then get her to explain to you why opinions of sound quality solicited by
or from anybody who has invested time, effort or money in the system under
scrutiny are worthless.


Not necessary.

My partner is the sharpest person I have ever met. Out of interest I have
just asked her who, ultimately, is the sharpest of the pair of us and she is
happy to concede that I am. (She's right - I am! ;-)

But if you cannot understand how we can both ask and answer that question
*meaningfully*, then I suggest you just let it go. Same with asking the
opinions of visitors and getting (or not getting) a useful response.

Actually David, I suspect your 'people skills' are set at rather a low level
if your approach to me is anything to go by....

;-)

And another one!
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote



*Or my partner who has a Psychology MA probably would be able to! ;-)

Then get her to explain to you why opinions of sound quality solicited by
or from anybody who has invested time, effort or money in the system
under scrutiny are worthless.


Not necessary.

My partner is the sharpest person I have ever met. Out of interest I have
just asked her who, ultimately, is the sharpest of the pair of us and she
is happy to concede that I am. (She's right - I am! ;-)

Sharp? in what sense?

But if you cannot understand how we can both ask and answer that question
*meaningfully*, then I suggest you just let it go. Same with asking the
opinions of visitors and getting (or not getting) a useful response.

I see what you are driving at, but you are going up the wrong track. It's
not a matter of honesty, and I'm not suggesting anyone is deliberately lying
to you. It's a matter of *perception*. Except in black & white cases
judgement of sound quality is notoriously subjective. And this subjective
judgement is subconsciously influenced by all sorts of extraneous factors
such
as the context of the listening session and the mood of the listener. With
the best will in the world you cannot expect an objective opinion under such
circumstances.

My point is that your friends perception of the sound will be influenced by
the emotional context of the listening session, shared experiences of other
sessions, and beliefs that you may have in common about what "good
reproduction" is supposed to sound like. As your friends and guests they
will *want* to like the sound, because they want to please you, so they
*will* like it. I repeat I'm not suggesting deliberate or conscious
dishonesty here, but a subconscious behaviour. That is why subjective
testing
needs to be so very careful to avoid bias.

When I worked in subjective testing nobody who knew *anything at all* about
the purpose of a test was allowed to participate. All that subjects were
allowed to know was how to vote, if any asked what the purpose of the test
was they were told to ask again after the test was over (though few
bothered). This was all to avoid the sort of subconscious bias which your
soliciting of opinions from your friends cannot possibly avoid.


Actually David, I suspect your 'people skills' are set at rather a low
level if your approach to me is anything to go by....

;-)


Well yours are nothing to write home about, not if your posting style here
is anything to go by.....

:-)

David.

And another one!
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote



*Or my partner who has a Psychology MA probably would be able to! ;-)

Then get her to explain to you why opinions of sound quality solicited
by
or from anybody who has invested time, effort or money in the system
under scrutiny are worthless.


Not necessary.

My partner is the sharpest person I have ever met. Out of interest I have
just asked her who, ultimately, is the sharpest of the pair of us and she
is happy to concede that I am. (She's right - I am! ;-)

Sharp? in what sense?


The PJ lamp is burning, I've no time to get into an 'in depth' here - sharp
in the most obvious sense that a normal person would understand.



But if you cannot understand how we can both ask and answer that question
*meaningfully*, then I suggest you just let it go. Same with asking the
opinions of visitors and getting (or not getting) a useful response.

I see what you are driving at, but you are going up the wrong track. It's
not a matter of honesty, and I'm not suggesting anyone is deliberately
lying
to you. It's a matter of *perception*. Except in black & white cases
judgement of sound quality is notoriously subjective. And this subjective
judgement is subconsciously influenced by all sorts of extraneous factors
such
as the context of the listening session and the mood of the listener.


Yes, yes, yes - all that is obvious and easy to blow out the window by
setting a careful inviation to listen.


With
the best will in the world you cannot expect an objective opinion under
such
circumstances.


Yes you can - sometimes your closest friends will be your harshest (and
fairest) critics. Strangers are much more like to try and give you the
answer they think you want to hear. Remember the context here - it doesn't
ever become a clinical, detached and fully scientific *sound laboratoty*!!




My point is that your friends perception of the sound will be influenced
by
the emotional context of the listening session, shared experiences of
other
sessions, and beliefs that you may have in common about what "good
reproduction" is supposed to sound like. As your friends and guests they
will *want* to like the sound, because they want to please you, so they
*will* like it.


Jesus Christ, try to get up off *Rung 1* will you? We're well past all that
here.


I repeat I'm not suggesting deliberate or conscious
dishonesty here, but a subconscious behaviour. That is why subjective
testing
needs to be so very careful to avoid bias.


No 'very careful' about it, the right words will set a useful session up.



When I worked in subjective testing nobody who knew *anything at all*
about
the purpose of a test was allowed to participate. All that subjects were
allowed to know was how to vote, if any asked what the purpose of the test
was they were told to ask again after the test was over (though few
bothered). This was all to avoid the sort of subconscious bias which your
soliciting of opinions from your friends cannot possibly avoid.


Sure. Whoopy Doo!

See above about how my friends would tell me to take a hike if I tried to
treat them in the patronising manner you describe!

Jeez, all you have to do is summat like ask 'What do you think of this -
does it stink?' most often.



Actually David, I suspect your 'people skills' are set at rather a low
level if your approach to me is anything to go by....

;-)


Well yours are nothing to write home about, not if your posting style here
is anything to go by.....


Said it a million times already (where were you - in the toilets?) - I pay
back in the coin I am paid in. ;-)