loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:11:22 GMT
"Wally" wrote:

Stuff like the positioning of the mics when recording classical music,
at, say, a concert, or the fact that engineers probablyuse a pair of
monitors when mixing 'pop' or other similarly recorded stuff.

Pop music is usually multitracked, isn't it? Would two widely-spaced mics
also be 'normal'? Do you mean that normal recording is anything that isn't
binaural?

The vast majority of soud systems is a stereo pair of loudspeakers.

therefore most music will be designed for such.

normal is the 'most usual'

I dont think I can make it clearer, sorry.


--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Ian Molton wrote:

Pop music is usually multitracked, isn't it? Would two widely-spaced
mics also be 'normal'? Do you mean that normal recording is anything
that isn't binaural?

The vast majority of soud systems is a stereo pair of loudspeakers.
therefore most music will be designed for such.
normal is the 'most usual'
I dont think I can make it clearer, sorry.

I was meaning normal in terms of recording technique, not in terms of the
intended use of the recording after processing...

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

What is a 'normal' stereo recording and how is it 'adjusted'?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Ian Molton wrote:

Pop music is usually multitracked, isn't it? Would two widely-spaced
mics also be 'normal'? Do you mean that normal recording is anything
that isn't binaural?

The vast majority of soud systems is a stereo pair of loudspeakers.
therefore most music will be designed for such.
normal is the 'most usual'
I dont think I can make it clearer, sorry.

I was meaning normal in terms of recording technique, not in terms of the
intended use of the recording after processing...

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

What is a 'normal' stereo recording and how is it 'adjusted'?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:44:44 GMT
"Wally" wrote:

sigh One last time...

The vast majority of soud systems is a stereo pair of loudspeakers.
therefore most music will be designed for such.
normal is the 'most usual'
I dont think I can make it clearer, sorry.

I was meaning normal in terms of recording technique, not in terms of
the intended use of the recording after processing...

Yes, in terms of recording technique. a stereo pair of speakers is WHAT
THE ENGINEERS WILL BE WORKING AT GETTING A GOOD SOUND FROM. hence they
will end up adjusting their equipment such that the sound from speakers
is good.

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

What is a 'normal' stereo recording and how is it 'adjusted'?

See above. and if you dont get it this time, I really cant help you.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:44:44 GMT
"Wally" wrote:

sigh One last time...

The vast majority of soud systems is a stereo pair of loudspeakers.
therefore most music will be designed for such.
normal is the 'most usual'
I dont think I can make it clearer, sorry.

I was meaning normal in terms of recording technique, not in terms of
the intended use of the recording after processing...

Yes, in terms of recording technique. a stereo pair of speakers is WHAT
THE ENGINEERS WILL BE WORKING AT GETTING A GOOD SOUND FROM. hence they
will end up adjusting their equipment such that the sound from speakers
is good.

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

What is a 'normal' stereo recording and how is it 'adjusted'?

See above. and if you dont get it this time, I really cant help you.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article , Ian Molton
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Dave Plowman
wrote:

Ok, now you've just gone plain nutty.

Really? I don't think you've thought this through.

theres no need to 'bleed' any amount of signal from one track to
another, simply PLAY the signal later on the same channel.

If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel
- as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers.
And of course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary
according to several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things
simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound
is arriving at my right ear too.

Yes, if listening to a natural sound source, However most recordings and
broadcasts are made on the basis that they will be listened to via
loudspeakers, When you listen via a speaker, both ears will hear sounds
produced by the input to an idividual speaker, but when you listen via
headphones, only one ear will hear that input. Thus, in general, when you
play a stereo signal, what reaches your ears will not be the same when you
switch from speakers to headphones even if we ignore factors like room
reflections, etc.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the
sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would
actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

.... or at least that is what they *try* to mimic. However even then, when
you listen via speakers, the results will usually be different than when
you listen via headphones.

The points I have been making are not regarding which is 'best'. Just
pointing out that the two listening arrangement inherently differ. Since
most recordings are made assuming the listening is being done via speakers,
then this may need to be taken into account. However FWIW my own experience
is that people's preferences on this vary from one person to another as
well as depending upon the actual recording/broadcast.

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in
order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you
point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some
positional information simply in the original recording process.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will
have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

In effect, acoustic 'bleeding' will then have been employed to mimic the
effects of diffraction around the head.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a
binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

Nor am I doing so, in either direction. :-) I am just pointing out that
the two methods (speakers and headphones) will present differing signal
patterns to the ears when using the same source material. In each case the
resulting 'imaging' will depend upon how the source material was created,
and how the individual's perceptions act. In practice, though, most
recordings and broadcasts are made without using either acoustic or
electronic methods to mimic effects like head diffraction by the ear lobes
or head-shape. Hence these 'prompts' will be absent when the recording or
broadcast is heard via headphones.

When listening via speakers, some of these prompts will be mimiced by the
speaker/head geometry. This will not be perfect, but the recording will
usually have been made on this basis.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article , Ian Molton
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Dave Plowman
wrote:

Ok, now you've just gone plain nutty.

Really? I don't think you've thought this through.

theres no need to 'bleed' any amount of signal from one track to
another, simply PLAY the signal later on the same channel.

If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel
- as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers.
And of course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary
according to several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things
simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound
is arriving at my right ear too.

Yes, if listening to a natural sound source, However most recordings and
broadcasts are made on the basis that they will be listened to via
loudspeakers, When you listen via a speaker, both ears will hear sounds
produced by the input to an idividual speaker, but when you listen via
headphones, only one ear will hear that input. Thus, in general, when you
play a stereo signal, what reaches your ears will not be the same when you
switch from speakers to headphones even if we ignore factors like room
reflections, etc.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the
sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would
actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

.... or at least that is what they *try* to mimic. However even then, when
you listen via speakers, the results will usually be different than when
you listen via headphones.

The points I have been making are not regarding which is 'best'. Just
pointing out that the two listening arrangement inherently differ. Since
most recordings are made assuming the listening is being done via speakers,
then this may need to be taken into account. However FWIW my own experience
is that people's preferences on this vary from one person to another as
well as depending upon the actual recording/broadcast.

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in
order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you
point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some
positional information simply in the original recording process.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will
have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

In effect, acoustic 'bleeding' will then have been employed to mimic the
effects of diffraction around the head.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a
binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

Nor am I doing so, in either direction. :-) I am just pointing out that
the two methods (speakers and headphones) will present differing signal
patterns to the ears when using the same source material. In each case the
resulting 'imaging' will depend upon how the source material was created,
and how the individual's perceptions act. In practice, though, most
recordings and broadcasts are made without using either acoustic or
electronic methods to mimic effects like head diffraction by the ear lobes
or head-shape. Hence these 'prompts' will be absent when the recording or
broadcast is heard via headphones.

When listening via speakers, some of these prompts will be mimiced by the
speaker/head geometry. This will not be perfect, but the recording will
usually have been made on this basis.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Ian Molton wrote:

Yes, in terms of recording technique. a stereo pair of speakers is
WHAT THE ENGINEERS WILL BE WORKING AT GETTING A
GOOD SOUND FROM. hence they will end up adjusting their equipment
such that the sound from speakers is good.

No need to shout. I was just seeking some technical elucidation on what a
'normal' stereo recording is, and how it's adjusted.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Ian Molton wrote:

Yes, in terms of recording technique. a stereo pair of speakers is
WHAT THE ENGINEERS WILL BE WORKING AT GETTING A
GOOD SOUND FROM. hence they will end up adjusting their equipment
such that the sound from speakers is good.

No need to shout. I was just seeking some technical elucidation on what a
'normal' stereo recording is, and how it's adjusted.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article , Old Fart at Play
wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:


Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a
natural level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the
room with you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.


You are totally and utterly wrong.

If you listen on headphones to a dummy head recording of a voice, it
sounds much more like the person is in the room than does a conventional
recording on speakers.

One distinction perhaps worth making here is that Dave referred to "in the
room with you" whereas in your response you said "the room". I assume you
mean by this "the room in which the *recording* was made" - i.e. not
usually the one you're sitting in when listening on headphones. The
processing made by a dummy head system will respond to the room acoustics
in which the recording was made, and has no idea what your own listening
room might sound like.

And what's more, you can recognise which room it was recorded in.

That may be so in some cases, but it may not be the room you are sitting
in, hence Dave's point about speakers may also be quite correct. For
headphones, I assume it would require the recording to be made in a room
acoustically identical/equivalent to the one in which you are sitting,
listening. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html