loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:13:12 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Err, who's talking about using room properties as a trick?

What would you call it? the sound isnt originating anywhere near where
it was originally (I suppose technically that makes all recording a
trick, but at least with a typical stereo setup sounds are *really*
comming from in front of you...

In a good room with good speakers listen to a good recording made with
a good coincident pair. You'll clearly hear what's on the front of the
mics and what's on the back.

I didnt deny the trick works...

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loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:16:32 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a natural
level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the room with
you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.

On that point we'll have to disagree... of course, finding a decent pair of headphones these days...

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:16:32 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a natural
level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the room with
you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.

On that point we'll have to disagree... of course, finding a decent pair of headphones these days...

--
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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:28:09 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Binaural recordings are *designed* to get round the deficiencies of
listening to stereo on headphones. That's the whole point of them.

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

Whats your point?

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
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loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:28:09 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Binaural recordings are *designed* to get round the deficiencies of
listening to stereo on headphones. That's the whole point of them.

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

Whats your point?

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:35:15 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Forget loudspeakers or headphones. Clamp your head rigidly and try
positioning live sounds with your eyes closed. Then try again without
the clamp. The small natural movements of the head helps position
sounds by measuring tiny phasing and level changes. This can't happen
with headphones.

How are you suggesting these 'small movements' work when the sound is
comming from speakers - two point sources ?

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:35:15 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Forget loudspeakers or headphones. Clamp your head rigidly and try
positioning live sounds with your eyes closed. Then try again without
the clamp. The small natural movements of the head helps position
sounds by measuring tiny phasing and level changes. This can't happen
with headphones.

How are you suggesting these 'small movements' work when the sound is
comming from speakers - two point sources ?

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:22:14 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Ok, now you've just gone plain nutty.

Really? I don't think you've thought this through.

theres no need to 'bleed' any amount of signal from one track to
another, simply PLAY the signal later on the same channel.

If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel -
as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers. And of
course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary according to
several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound is arriving at my right ear too.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some positional information simply in the original recording process.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:22:14 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

Ok, now you've just gone plain nutty.

Really? I don't think you've thought this through.

theres no need to 'bleed' any amount of signal from one track to
another, simply PLAY the signal later on the same channel.

If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel -
as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers. And of
course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary according to
several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound is arriving at my right ear too.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some positional information simply in the original recording process.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:29:41 +0000 (GMT)
Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Ian Bell wrote:
This is a common fallacy. This is why speakers sound worse than
headphones. The ear uses this imformation to determine that the sound is
really coming from two point sources, the speakers. headphones do not
have this limitation.

So headphones aren't point sources? Perhaps you'd say what they are, then?

Hes got a point. headphone drivers are (usually) at least as big as the hole in the ear, and RIGHT NEXT TO it.

to give an anology, here on earth, the sun it, to all intents and purposes, a point source of light.

I wouldnt suggest you ask a person standing on mercury if they considered the sun a point source. it'd be considerably bigger looking than the moon from there, I'd guess.

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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.