loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Ian Molton wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:43:31 GMT
"Wally" wrote:

And a 'normal' stereo recording is 'adjusted' to make up for the
deficiencies of its typical playback medium - stereo speakers.

What's a 'normal' stereo recording, and how is it adjusted for
playback on speakers?

I'll tell you that if you tell me what a normal recording for
headphones is ;-)

Not my drum.


but seriosuly, most stereo recordings are (as others have pointed out)
intended for listening to on speakers. hence during the recordign that
is the playback scheme that the engineers will be trying to make the
recording sound 'right' on.

I don't think you've answered the question - what and how?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Forget loudspeakers or headphones. Clamp your head rigidly and try
positioning live sounds with your eyes closed. Then try again without
the clamp. The small natural movements of the head helps position
sounds by measuring tiny phasing and level changes. This can't happen
with headphones.

How are you suggesting these 'small movements' work when the sound is
comming from speakers - two point sources ?

But of course. And you'd have to define a point source, since nothing
will be exactly that. A voice might as well be called one too.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Forget loudspeakers or headphones. Clamp your head rigidly and try
positioning live sounds with your eyes closed. Then try again without
the clamp. The small natural movements of the head helps position
sounds by measuring tiny phasing and level changes. This can't happen
with headphones.

How are you suggesting these 'small movements' work when the sound is
comming from speakers - two point sources ?

But of course. And you'd have to define a point source, since nothing
will be exactly that. A voice might as well be called one too.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel
- as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers.
And of course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary
according to several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things
simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound
is arriving at my right ear too.

Agreed.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the
sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would
actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

But they don't, since all the interpretation of the various parameters is
done by the brain. And a dummy head does not record pure left and right to
feed pure left and right to the headphones which feed pure left and right
to your ears - to leave the brain to do the interpretation.

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in
order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you
point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some
positional information simply in the original recording process.

I didn't point that out. I merely said - or meant to say - that *level*
isn't the only thing that determines positioning - indeed it may be one
of the *less* important things for natural sounding stereo as any purely
pan potted recording will show.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

'Bleed' is an accepted term for injecting a non defined part of a signal
into another. Bleeding hell, I thought everyone knew that.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will
have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

Yes - a dummy head will have more crosstalk between channels than most
coincident pairs.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a
binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

Binaural recordings can and do sound good on speakers in again a good
room. You'd get best results by sitting closer to the speakers or moving
them apart further than normal, though.

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
If it's a 'left' signal it will have to be bled to the 'right' channel
- as well as delayed - if headphones are to approximate to speakers.
And of course neither the bleed or the delay are fixed but vary
according to several parameters. That's why I've tried to keep things
simple.

Sorry, but if someone is talking to the left of me, some of that sound
is arriving at my right ear too.

Agreed.

Thats what recordings made for headphones are about - they record the
sound in such a way as the left and right channels are what would
actually be heard by that ear (you can simplify, so can I).

But they don't, since all the interpretation of the various parameters is
done by the brain. And a dummy head does not record pure left and right to
feed pure left and right to the headphones which feed pure left and right
to your ears - to leave the brain to do the interpretation.

You might want to 'bleed' some signal from one channel to another in
order to 'convert' a recording to a headphone recording, but as you
point out this isnt going to be easy, as you've already lost some
positional information simply in the original recording process.

I didn't point that out. I merely said - or meant to say - that *level*
isn't the only thing that determines positioning - indeed it may be one
of the *less* important things for natural sounding stereo as any purely
pan potted recording will show.

be fair, compare like with like, none of this bleeding rubbish.

'Bleed' is an accepted term for injecting a non defined part of a signal
into another. Bleeding hell, I thought everyone knew that.

With a headphone-optimised *recording* no bleeding is needed, it will
have been picked up as it actually happened, by the recording equipment.

Yes - a dummy head will have more crosstalk between channels than most
coincident pairs.

you wouldnt be suggesting that speakers can make a good image of a
binaural recording, so dont do the reverse.

Binaural recordings can and do sound good on speakers in again a good
room. You'd get best results by sitting closer to the speakers or moving
them apart further than normal, though.

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Dave Plowman wrote:


Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a natural
level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the room with
you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.


You are totally and utterly wrong.

If you listen on headphones to a dummy head recording of a voice,
it sounds much more like the person is in the room than does a
conventional recording on speakers.
And what's more, you can recognise which room it was recorded in.

--
Roger.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Dave Plowman wrote:


Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a natural
level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the room with
you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.


You are totally and utterly wrong.

If you listen on headphones to a dummy head recording of a voice,
it sounds much more like the person is in the room than does a
conventional recording on speakers.
And what's more, you can recognise which room it was recorded in.

--
Roger.

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Old Fart at Play wrote:
Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a
natural level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the
room with you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.


You are totally and utterly wrong.

If you listen on headphones to a dummy head recording of a voice,
it sounds much more like the person is in the room than does a
conventional recording on speakers.

Not to me, it doesn't.

And what's more, you can recognise which room it was recorded in.

You know all the places such recordings are made personally? Perhaps
you'd tell us what part of the industry you work in?

But seriously, hearing a recording room acoustic clearly is simply a
function of good reproduction and listening room acoustics when using
speakers.

Just about every single reply here is simply pointing out the poor
acoustics of the average listening room. It amazes me that people will
spend so much on amps and speakers, but baulk at sorting room acoustics. I
call it the B & O syndrome.

--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

In article ,
Old Fart at Play wrote:
Put it this way. A well recorded voice played over speakers at a
natural level might well fool you into thinking that person was in the
room with you. With headphones? Never in a month of Sundays.


You are totally and utterly wrong.

If you listen on headphones to a dummy head recording of a voice,
it sounds much more like the person is in the room than does a
conventional recording on speakers.

Not to me, it doesn't.

And what's more, you can recognise which room it was recorded in.

You know all the places such recordings are made personally? Perhaps
you'd tell us what part of the industry you work in?

But seriously, hearing a recording room acoustic clearly is simply a
function of good reproduction and listening room acoustics when using
speakers.

Just about every single reply here is simply pointing out the poor
acoustics of the average listening room. It amazes me that people will
spend so much on amps and speakers, but baulk at sorting room acoustics. I
call it the B & O syndrome.

--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

loudspeaker stereo imaging
 

Dave Plowman wrote:

snip



Just about every single reply here is simply pointing out the poor
acoustics of the average listening room. It amazes me that people will
spend so much on amps and speakers, but baulk at sorting room acoustics. I
call it the B & O syndrome.


I have disagreed with much of what you have said in this thread but on this
point I am with you 100%.

Ian