An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I remember the same Luddite atttitude from
string players who were adamant that they
would only track to speakers, and the use of
headphones was out of the question.
Despite this, tracking with headphones soon
became standard practise and yielded far
better results. The ubiquitous GRFs had their
dust covers fitted and were pushed into dark
corners years ago.along with the Baldwin pianos
amd the Mellotrons. No one asks for tracking
speakers any mo-)

In professional recording, supply of would-be
studio musicians exceeds the demand many
times over, so professionalism is much in
evidence, and adamancy is rarely seen -
(except for players who say "instead of coffee,
can we have another take? I am *sure* I can
play it better" ::-)

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.


Iain

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I remember the same Luddite atttitude from
string players who were adamant that they
would only track to speakers, and the use of
headphones was out of the question.

That must have been a long long time ago. Fiddle players were wearing cans
while I still worked for the BBC - some 40 years ago. 'We' even had
specials for them - with only one ear piece.

BTW, think you need to re-consider Luddite. Cans were the first type of
monitoring. Look at early broadcast stuff. So luddite would be going back
to that - despite speakers being so much better.

Despite this, tracking with headphones soon
became standard practise and yielded far
better results. The ubiquitous GRFs had their
dust covers fitted and were pushed into dark
corners years ago.along with the Baldwin pianos
amd the Mellotrons. No one asks for tracking
speakers any mo-)

Still common to supply a foldback speaker(s) in an orch area so they can
follow acts when not playing in say a variety show. If they want to.

In professional recording, supply of would-be
studio musicians exceeds the demand many
times over, so professionalism is much in
evidence, and adamancy is rarely seen -
(except for players who say "instead of coffee,
can we have another take? I am *sure* I can
play it better" ::-)

And the supply of recording studios exceeds demand too. So unless you are
providing something the client wants, you'll go out of business.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Thanks for putting me right Iain. Now go out and ask some jobbing
musicians about your friends ideas. The one I discussed it with has far
more experience at the 'pop' end than anyone else I know.

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.

Odd then after all these years and years he is the first to think of it.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

And will be ignored, unless so. Every single player will have a different
view on what is a good balance. Hence it being left to those in charge at
the end of the day. I'm utterly surprised you've not found that the very
best musician may not be the best sound balancer.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.

In any decent studio it is trivial to send the monitoring mix to musician
cans for a replay. And you always keep the 'orchestra' present when doing
the final mix? You must work with different budgets from me.

But sadly a very poor balance in all probability for the paying customers
- those who listen at home on speakers. So I take it you missed my
original point entirely?


Decent monitoring in any control room has always been one of the most
difficult things to achieve, and costs many thousands. If replacing that
with a cheaper set of cans was satisfactory, don't you think it would have
been done a million times before?

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Dave wrote:
I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on
it.

You can be sure of that. The investment comes from venture capital
(about half from the UK)

All with no ties?

I stated clearly above the company is financed by venture capital.

Since the Brexit decision, sterling has taken a tumble, (it is a 1.185 Euros
today) and UK merchant bankers are very keen to make solid investments
in the EU before the door closes on them. So they are currently offering
terms more advantageous than their German, French or Swedish
counterparts.

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow
redundancy money on untested ideas.



It takes a considerably more than a termination of contract payment
to set up a classical recordiing studio Check out the price tag of an
AWS 948 console from SSL, or a Lawo mc2 90.

Iain



Well would he be buying a new one, no good used around?..
--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.


Iain





Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...
--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article , Phil
Allison scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:


I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with rebuilt
crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets.
Sold them a couple of years on
at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


Still got the ESL57's?...
--


** No, thirty years expired in 2002.

Since then I entertained borrowed ESL63s driven by Quad 405s and 306s for a long
while - verrrry nice.

:-)..

Then I purchased a pair of used ESL63s from an authorised Quad dealer and
unfortunately had to return them for a full refund. You do NOT wanna know the
legal hassles that involved.

Nope!, lots to do with repairing and replacing errant panels no doubt.
And is there anyone K to do that in Oz suppose the carriage back to
Huntingdon is the price of a new pair;!..


Now I content myself with a pair of 3-way speakers, employing all Vifa drivers
in *heavily modified* cabinets that once housed AR2Axs.

I fancy they sound rather better than KEF Concertos but not quite as good as the
phenomenal Yamaha NS1000s.

Yep one of the good designs..



.... Phil



--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

More chance if recording something straightforward and fundamentally self
balanced. As I'd hope something meant to be heard direct by the public
would be.

Totally different with pop stuff.

If you have a very nice hall you want to use as a one off - just park up a
mobile and use that.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

Yes or course.

There is an excellent series of recordings (made on a Nagra IV
with an pair of Neumann 84s) of early keyboard instruments in the
collection at the V&A. These recordings, like the organ recordings
made at Paisley Abbey at around the same time were monitored on
nothing more illustrious than a pair Beyer DT100 headphones.

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

More chance if recording something straightforward and fundamentally self
balanced. As I'd hope something meant to be heard direct by the public
would be.

Totally different with pop stuff.

Why? The studio which is the subject of this thread will be doing
overdubs for "pop stuff" (sic:-) - strings and brass. A producer who
takes a string overdub project to a church will expect a classical
approach. So it is not different at all:-)

Iain