Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal the
eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were predators
stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

d

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In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were
predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

Again, near overnight? And in central London?

--
*What do you call a dinosaur with an extensive vocabulary? A thesaurus.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On 03/03/2017 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal the
eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were predators
stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

It's a well-kept secret but the Vauxhall City Farm is only a quarter of
a mile from MI6. :-)

--
Eiron.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal the
eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were predators
stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

d

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:27:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were
predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

Again, near overnight? And in central London?

Yes.

d

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:36:25 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:27:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were
predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

Again, near overnight? And in central London?

Yes.

d

Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

d

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In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:36:25 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:27:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

Again, near overnight? And in central London?

Yes.

d

Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

What isn't clear from a quick read of that is why the effect might be
disproportionately severe in London, which probably had fewer insects than
the countryside before the decline outside London.

The thought that occurred to me is that the air pollution might also weaken
the birds. But I didn't see any attempt to correlate against that.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

--
*The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

Yes - I've read that before. But no explanation for the suddenness of it.
Did farmers start using a new and very powerful insecticide?

And adult birds can live for 20 years (in theory). So a lack of young
replacements would have made their decline gradual?

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:15:17 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

Yes - I've read that before. But no explanation for the suddenness of it.
Did farmers start using a new and very powerful insecticide?

And adult birds can live for 20 years (in theory). So a lack of young
replacements would have made their decline gradual?

Yes to the first. For the second, sparrows have their predators like
any other bird and as soon as a decline sets in the balance is upset
to a point where the predators make short work of the remaining birds.
They may theoretically live to 20, but very few did so a decline over
four or five years fits the bill very well.

d

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On 03/03/2017 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal the
eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so quickly.
I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it were predators
stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are the
sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.


There are quite a few, often underground. http://growup.org.uk

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:05:57 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:15:17 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
Just did some Googling


http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-vanishing-spa
rrow-1026319.html

Yes - I've read that before. But no explanation for the suddenness of it.
Did farmers start using a new and very powerful insecticide?

And adult birds can live for 20 years (in theory). So a lack of young
replacements would have made their decline gradual?

Yes to the first. For the second, sparrows have their predators like
any other bird and as soon as a decline sets in the balance is upset
to a point where the predators make short work of the remaining birds.

There's no such thing as a "balance" as you put it. Populations of
everything rise and fall for a variety of reasons.

There is a balance- it is dynamic, affected by all sort of factors.
The good old unstable Xi+1 = r * Xi * (1 - Xi) equation describes this
more or less. But when suddenly new generations are not being raised
because a food source has all but vanished, that is severely upset.
The normal predation cycle no longer applies and the remaining birds
are picked off ever more rapidly. Total extinction is rare, and
normally a new dynamic equilibrium will be restored at a much lower
population level. This will be matched some time later by a reduction
in the number of predators.

That is where we are now. The number of garden sparrows is way down,
but not zero. It is at a sustainable level given the number of insects
available.

d


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Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?



--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:22:37 -0600, Richard Robinson
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?

Pigeons are almost gone - certainly compared to 30 years ago. There
are some seagulls, but they aren't the menace I was expecting them to
be.

d

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:15:28 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:36:25 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:27:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

Again, near overnight? And in central London?

Yes.

d

Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

What isn't clear from a quick read of that is why the effect might be
disproportionately severe in London, which probably had fewer insects than
the countryside before the decline outside London.

The thought that occurred to me is that the air pollution might also weaken
the birds. But I didn't see any attempt to correlate against that.

Jim

I don't think it is, particularly. It is just that London gardens are
the places most people are used to seeing sparrows up close. In the
countryside they are just another small bird. I don't think air
pollution has much to do with it. I live on top of the hill in
Hampstead where the air is particularly good (for London), and
sparrows are rare here. But apart from bees and butterflies, flying
insects are all but non-existent. So the sparrows have no food here.

And of course as far as insects are concerned, London is just an
island in their world of farmed land surrounding us. If the insects
vanish from the farmland, they are gone from London in short order.

d

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In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
They may theoretically live to 20, but very few did so a decline over
four or five years fits the bill very well.

But they didn't decline over 4 or 5 years here - that was my point. It
happened very quickly. Over a matter of months at best - maybe even
shorter.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population
like ? Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ?
Or seagulls ?

Pigeons are almost gone - certainly compared to 30 years ago.

Not round here. Still as common as ever. Got parakeets now too.

--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:08:55 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
They may theoretically live to 20, but very few did so a decline over
four or five years fits the bill very well.

But they didn't decline over 4 or 5 years here - that was my point. It
happened very quickly. Over a matter of months at best - maybe even
shorter.

Maybe where you are - here it took a little longer. But if the food
disappears during one season, then that is exactly what will happen.

d

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Don Pearce said:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:22:37 -0600, Richard Robinson

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?

Pigeons are almost gone - certainly compared to 30 years ago. There
are some seagulls, but they aren't the menace I was expecting them to
be.

Okay ... London really is a unique place, then. Would you like some of ours
?


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:19:36 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:08:55 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
They may theoretically live to 20, but very few did so a decline over
four or five years fits the bill very well.

But they didn't decline over 4 or 5 years here - that was my point. It
happened very quickly. Over a matter of months at best - maybe even
shorter.

Maybe where you are - here it took a little longer. But if the food
disappears during one season, then that is exactly what will happen.

d

There are plenty of population graphs out there. It seems that the
decline was pretty much complete over a span of ten years (which was
about what I remembered) starting about 1977 and reaching the present
level about 1987. So clearly it is Maggie Thatcher to blame.

d

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 12:28:48 -0600, Richard Robinson
wrote:

Don Pearce said:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:22:37 -0600, Richard Robinson

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?

Pigeons are almost gone - certainly compared to 30 years ago. There
are some seagulls, but they aren't the menace I was expecting them to
be.

Okay ... London really is a unique place, then. Would you like some of ours
?

It appears it's only my bit of London. But seagulls? Thieving *******s
- no thanks!

d

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On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 19:11:25 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:05:57 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

Yes to the first. For the second, sparrows have their predators like
any other bird and as soon as a decline sets in the balance is upset
to a point where the predators make short work of the remaining birds.

There's no such thing as a "balance" as you put it. Populations of
everything rise and fall for a variety of reasons.

There is a balance- it is dynamic, affected by all sort of factors.
The good old unstable Xi+1 = r * Xi * (1 - Xi) equation describes this
more or less. But when suddenly new generations are not being raised
because a food source has all but vanished, that is severely upset.

You're assuming the food source has vanished. And sparrows here eat a
variety of things, not just insects.

You don't know that. The simple equation you give above describes
simple behaviour. The factors influencing the population of sparrows is
going to be correspondingly more complex, and for all you know that may
make the population values vary wildly and unpredictably.

Of course I'm simplifying. But the fact is that sparrows disappeared
at - as far as I can remember - the same time as the flying insects.
Insects are their main summer food. Now we have two options here.
Either the insects vanished and the sparrows starved, or the sparrows
ate all the insects.

I don't think this is the forum for going into the minutiae of the
food chain of the sparrow. Either we keep it simple or we don't
bother.

d

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Don Pearce said:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 12:28:48 -0600, Richard Robinson
Don Pearce said:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:22:37 -0600, Richard Robinson

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?

Pigeons are almost gone - certainly compared to 30 years ago. There
are some seagulls, but they aren't the menace I was expecting them to
be.

Okay ... London really is a unique place, then. Would you like some of ours
?

It appears it's only my bit of London. But seagulls? Thieving *******s
- no thanks!

Damn. Oh well, it was worth a try.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 03/03/2017 12:35, Don Pearce wrote:
Just did some Googling

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...w-1026319.html

Funny that, they're doing fine here. And we have an agribusiness (not
organic!) at the bottom of the garden.

I must get around to building them some boxes. They keep getting into
the roof.

Andy

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Richard
Robinson scribeth thus
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?



I think that domestic moggy's have a lot to do with it;(..
--
Tony Sayer

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 03/03/2017 23:56, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Richard
Robinson scribeth thus
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?



I think that domestic moggy's have a lot to do with it;(..


Makes sense to me, at least for my small garden.

Also, this issue of enticing/demise of small birds in urban gardens came
up on gardener's question time the other day - and at least one
mentioned cats as the single most significant cause.

--
Cheers, Rob

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 03/03/2017 23:56, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Richard
Robinson scribeth thus
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or seagulls
?



I think that domestic moggy's have a lot to do with it;(..


Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:
I think that domestic moggy's have a lot to do with it;(..


Makes sense to me, at least for my small garden.

Also, this issue of enticing/demise of small birds in urban gardens came
up on gardener's question time the other day - and at least one
mentioned cats as the single most significant cause.

Think I'd have noticed the sudden appearance of packs of cats needed to
catch all those sparrows in such a short time.

Odd they never caught the robins which appear as normal.

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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Dave Plowman (News):
In article ,

Yes, in the circumstances. But it's kind of a pity for anybody in the
UK
who does care about such music, especially any students who might
have
spent years of their life working towards getting a place in such an
orchestra. But, as you say, inevitable. Just one of the smaller
reasons
why I do not have a good opinion of Brexit.

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK -
having
to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot
something
that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation that have
a
presence here.


Dave Plowman London SW

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc.
It is entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we
allow to enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why would
we stop ?
Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of the world than we
are outside them.


MK

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Michael Kellett wrote:
Dave Plowman (News):
In article ,

Yes, in the circumstances. But it's kind of a pity for anybody in the
UK
who does care about such music, especially any students who might
have
spent years of their life working towards getting a place in such an
orchestra. But, as you say, inevitable. Just one of the smaller
reasons
why I do not have a good opinion of Brexit.

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK -
having
to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot
something
that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation that have
a
presence here.

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc.
It is entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we
allow to enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why would
we stop ?
Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of the world than we
are outside them.

You didn't notice one of the main reasons many voted out was to control
immigration from the EU? So just how do you do that while allowing free
access to anyone?

You'd have to basically stop everyone from coming to this country. Then
give permission (visa, etc) to those you wish to admit.

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

Michael Kellett said:
Dave Plowman (News):

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK - having
to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot something
that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation that have a
presence here.

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc. It is
entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we allow to
enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why would
we stop ? Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of the world
than we are outside them.

This thread /did/ start with the example of an orchestra that seems to think
it has valid reasons for concern on this, ahem, score.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Michael Kellett said:
Dave Plowman (News):

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK -
having to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot
something that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation
that have a presence here.

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc. It is
entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we allow
to enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why
would we stop ? Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of
the world than we are outside them.

This thread /did/ start with the example of an orchestra that seems to
think it has valid reasons for concern on this, ahem, score.

If it weren't so sad it would be funny. The majority who voted have voted
out - to control immigration from the EU. To stop EU workers coming here
'taking our jobs' And 'depressing wages'. And using services 'they haven't
paid for'

Without much of a clue as to how this could be achieved in practice.

Perhaps they might say what alternatives there would be to a Visa, etc?
Let in anyone with 'musician' on their passport?

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 04/03/2017 16:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Michael Kellett said:
Dave Plowman (News):

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK -
having to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot
something that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation
that have a presence here.

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc. It is
entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we allow
to enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why
would we stop ? Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of
the world than we are outside them.

This thread /did/ start with the example of an orchestra that seems to
think it has valid reasons for concern on this, ahem, score.

If it weren't so sad it would be funny. The majority who voted have voted
out - to control immigration from the EU. To stop EU workers coming here
'taking our jobs' And 'depressing wages'. And using services 'they haven't
paid for'

Without much of a clue as to how this could be achieved in practice.

Or even whether it was true in the first place.



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 03/03/2017 23:56, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Richard
Robinson scribeth thus
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 3 Mar 2017 11:14:44 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:09:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article ,
Woody wrote:
More likely the abundance of grey squirrels and magpies that steal
the eggs out of the nests - and not just sparrows.

That wouldn't explain the sparrows round here disappearing so
quickly. I assumed it was some sort of virus or whatever. And if it
were predators stealing eggs, why are there so many pigeons?

No, it's farmers. They have killed all the small insects which are
the sparrows' main food source.

In Central London, where Dave lives? Lots of farms there. Not.

Doesn't matter. The surrounding countryside is where the insects bred.
Do you have another explanation for the disappearance of flying
insects?

But other bird species didn't get wiped out so quickly. Do sparrows
have a
particular and picky diet? That would be odd for such a previously
successful species? In the average London garden they outnumbered all
others by a very large percentage.

It's a long time since I was in London - what's the pigeon population
like ?
Is it possible they're outcompeting other species for the food ? Or
seagulls
?



I think that domestic moggy's have a lot to do with it;(..


Makes sense to me, at least for my small garden.

Also, this issue of enticing/demise of small birds in urban gardens came
up on gardener's question time the other day - and at least one mentioned
cats as the single most significant cause.

No doubt true.

At home, our cat wears a collar with a bell,
and has given up trying to catch the birds.

At the summer cottage. he becomes a silent predator
and has a collar with just an identity disk, and catches
three or four a field mice or voles every day.

I have noticed that when there are plenty of voles,
moles etc, the numbers of owls and hawks increase
dramatically. In leaner years, when these birds have
less to eat, they too decrease in numbers, which
makes me think that Don's analysis of the situation
is correct.


Iain

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.

--
Mike Fleming

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:19:29 +0000, Mike Fleming
wrote:

In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.

That figure makes me think that the impact of cat predation on the
population is close to zero. In general the number of creatures an
area can support is in inverse proportion to their size. Sparrows are
minute.

d

---
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Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.

d

---
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Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:50:39 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.


Actually, I just looked up the RSPB figures on the population of house
sparrows. 5.4 million mating pairs. So 20 million cat victims sounds
like a number someone has pulled out of the air.

d

---
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On 04/03/2017 20:08, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:50:39 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.


Actually, I just looked up the RSPB figures on the population of house
sparrows. 5.4 million mating pairs. So 20 million cat victims sounds
like a number someone has pulled out of the air.


All birds, not just sparrows.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.