Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 20:24:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 20:08, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:50:39 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.


Actually, I just looked up the RSPB figures on the population of house
sparrows. 5.4 million mating pairs. So 20 million cat victims sounds
like a number someone has pulled out of the air.


All birds, not just sparrows.

Oh, right.

d

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Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 04/03/2017 20:52, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 20:24:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 20:08, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:50:39 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.


Actually, I just looked up the RSPB figures on the population of house
sparrows. 5.4 million mating pairs. So 20 million cat victims sounds
like a number someone has pulled out of the air.


All birds, not just sparrows.

Oh, right.


Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow (was: BaroqueMusical Chairs)
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 21:39:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:


====snip====


I don't think this is the forum for going into the minutiae of the food
chain of the sparrow. Either we keep it simple or we don't bother.

Then let's not bother.

Good call! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 21:49:22 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 20:52, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 20:24:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 20:08, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:50:39 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 19:36:54 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 04/03/2017 19:19, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.


I'd doubled up already, obviously, that's 20 million birds a year

Still next to nothing.


Actually, I just looked up the RSPB figures on the population of house
sparrows. 5.4 million mating pairs. So 20 million cat victims sounds
like a number someone has pulled out of the air.


All birds, not just sparrows.

Oh, right.


Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

Well, we had whatever balance we had with about that many cats, so
it's probably as well we had them. We'd be overrun otherwise. They are
clearly no longer catching sparrows, anyway.

I've been looking at more graphs of bird population. It is apparent
that it is only those that rely on farmland (which also means insect
eaters) that have diminished. Woodland and wetland birds have
maintained there numbers. Apart from intense insecticide use, another
factor came into play in the late seventies - removal of winter
stubble. That did a lot to deny birds a major part of their natural
habitat.

So it is still all about what farmers do.

d

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OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow
 

Johnny B Good wrote:

Good call! :-)

Shortest JBG post ever?

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Graeme Wall
wrote:

Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

The "More or Less" Radio 4 programme tried to find out the figures for this
a while ago. Their conclusion was that the figures various organisations
bandied about were all wild guesstimates based on presumptions that suited
them.

In effect, a chain of people who all took a figure from someone else,
manipulated or misunderstood it, and then 'published' it for others to
repeat the process.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Jim Lesurf
scribeth thus
In article , Graeme Wall
wrote:

Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

The "More or Less" Radio 4 programme tried to find out the figures for this
a while ago. Their conclusion was that the figures various organisations
bandied about were all wild guesstimates based on presumptions that suited
them.

In effect, a chain of people who all took a figure from someone else,
manipulated or misunderstood it, and then 'published' it for others to
repeat the process.

Jim


One things for certain the feral Pigeon and Collared Dove populations
never diminish;(..
--
Tony Sayer

OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow (was: Baroque Musical Chairs)
 

In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 21:39:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:


====snip====


I don't think this is the forum for going into the minutiae of the food
chain of the sparrow. Either we keep it simple or we don't bother.


Isn't a sparrow a "tweeter"

Then let's not bother.

Good call! :-)


Least its not about sodding Brexit;!..
--
Tony Sayer

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 09:57:26 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Graeme Wall
wrote:

Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

The "More or Less" Radio 4 programme tried to find out the figures for this
a while ago. Their conclusion was that the figures various organisations
bandied about were all wild guesstimates based on presumptions that suited
them.

In effect, a chain of people who all took a figure from someone else,
manipulated or misunderstood it, and then 'published' it for others to
repeat the process.

That's my take on the numbers too. The process reminds me a bit of the
nonsensical Drake equation.

d

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OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow (was: Baroque Musical Chairs)
 

You shouldn't have changed the title - its still ongoing under the
original!


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 05/03/2017 09:57, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Graeme Wall
wrote:

Looks like it's worse that I remembered:

Estimates of how many creatures are killed by cats each year vary
significantly. The most recent figures are from the Mammal Society,
which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey items a
year, of which 55 million are birds.

RSPB

The "More or Less" Radio 4 programme tried to find out the figures for this
a while ago. Their conclusion was that the figures various organisations
bandied about were all wild guesstimates based on presumptions that suited
them.

In effect, a chain of people who all took a figure from someone else,
manipulated or misunderstood it, and then 'published' it for others to
repeat the process.


Doesn't surprise me.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

That's my take on the numbers too. The process reminds me a bit of the
nonsensical Drake equation.

Well, the *equation* is quite logical. The snag is to fill in sensible
values for the variables. :-)

There has been some progress with this in the last decade or so as we've
finally begun being able to detect and examine extra-Solar planets. Finding
'life' is a bit harder, though. 8-]

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow (was: Baroque Musical Chairs)
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good johnny-b-
scribeth thus
On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 21:39:44 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Don
Pearce wrote:


====snip====


I don't think this is the forum for going into the minutiae of the
food chain of the sparrow. Either we keep it simple or we don't
bother.


Isn't a sparrow a "tweeter"

Then let's not bother.

Good call! :-)


Least its not about sodding Brexit;!..

Well, it might be. Maybe the sparrows decided to leave the UK. 9-]

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

Dave Plowman (News):
In article ,
Michael Kellett wrote:
Dave Plowman (News):
In article ,

Yes, in the circumstances. But it's kind of a pity for anybody in
the
UK
who does care about such music, especially any students who might
have
spent years of their life working towards getting a place in such
an
orchestra. But, as you say, inevitable. Just one of the smaller
reasons
why I do not have a good opinion of Brexit.

Quite. Can you imagine BMW - who own the Mini factory in the UK -
having
to apply for a visa to send over an engineer to trouble shoot
something
that crops up? Likewise with any such European organisation that
have
a
presence here.

Where does all this come from - why do you think we would impose
visa
requirments on the EU - we don't on Norway, or the US etc etc.
It is entirely up to the UK (now) who, and under what conditions, we
allow to enter the country to sing, dance or make Minis. We have a
long
(centuries) old tradition of allowing performers free access - why
would
we stop ?
Under EU rules we are obliged to sanction far more of the world than
we
are outside them.

You didn't notice one of the main reasons many voted out was to
control
immigration from the EU? So just how do you do that while allowing
free
access to anyone?

You'd have to basically stop everyone from coming to this country.
Then
give permission (visa, etc) to those you wish to admit.

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You are confusing issues - the example was " visa to send over an
engineer to trouble shoot something" - this has nothing to do with
immigration.

"You'd have to basically stop everyone from coming to this country.
Then
give permission (visa, etc) to those you wish to admit."

Why - that doesn't happen now - why should we be so stupid as to start.
Terms vary but most reasonable countires allow short visits without
visas.

I would expect that we would allow visa free travel form the EU and a
great many other places - but not a right stay indefinately.

What's the problem ?

MK

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 04/03/2017 19:34, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 19:19:29 +0000, Mike Fleming
wrote:

In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

Somewhere I read the average cat kills 2 birds a year, trouble is there
are around 20 million domestic moggies.

10.3 million, according to the lastest peer-reviewed paper.

That figure makes me think that the impact of cat predation on the
population is close to zero. In general the number of creatures an
area can support is in inverse proportion to their size. Sparrows are
minute.


I don't think it's much to do with the kill ratio. Their simply being
around deters the birds.

Just a guess reinforced by anecdote underpinned by prejudice ;-)

--
Cheers, Rob

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 05/03/2017 11:26, tony sayer wrote:

One things for certain the feral Pigeon and Collared Dove populations
never diminish;(..

How did the Americans solve the passenger pigeon problem?

--
Eiron.

OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow
 

On 05/03/2017 11:28, tony sayer wrote:

Isn't a sparrow a "tweeter"

Was it cats or woofers that ate all the tweeters?
And was Byrd extinct before the baroque era?

--
Eiron.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 12:34:51 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

That's my take on the numbers too. The process reminds me a bit of the
nonsensical Drake equation.

Well, the *equation* is quite logical. The snag is to fill in sensible
values for the variables. :-)

There has been some progress with this in the last decade or so as we've
finally begun being able to detect and examine extra-Solar planets. Finding
'life' is a bit harder, though. 8-]

Jim

The variables are part of the problem, but it is also quite an
ill-conditioned equation.

As for the variables themselves, it looks like planets are far more
ubiquitous than it allowed for. It seems that every star that can be
imaged has planets. I suspect that is going to be the case generally -
if there is enough "stuff" to make a star, there will be enough left
over to form planets as well.

d

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In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

The variables are part of the problem, but it is also quite an
ill-conditioned equation.

As for the variables themselves, it looks like planets are far more
ubiquitous than it allowed for. It seems that every star that can be
imaged has planets. I suspect that is going to be the case generally -
if there is enough "stuff" to make a star, there will be enough left
over to form planets as well.

Yes, now we've started to be able to detect them, that particular factor
can be assumed to approach unity. But in the past - although some argued
planets would be the norm (in single-star systems) - it was just as easy to
argue that the startup of the star would tend to remove and/or eat the
remaining material.

What has been more unexpected is planets in binary+ systems.

FWIW I used to work on instrumentations for 'Far Infra Red' (say 100 micron
to 3 mm wavelength) astronomers many years ago. Back then no-one had
detected anything in the FIR sky beyond the Sun, Moon, main solar planets
and *barely* the crab nebula. At the time it was hard go get support or
telescope time because other astronomers said there was no reason to expect
the FIR would reveal anything.

How wrong they were. A decade or so later the FIR/mm-wave people were block
booking time on the larger telescopes and publishing a stream of reports on
detecting new things. Interesting time... :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

OT: the minutiae of the food chain of the sparrow
 

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 06:13:39 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

Good call! :-)

Shortest JBG post ever?

Quite probably. I even trimmed the quotage too! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Dave is talking cock again, that is the problem. What you are
suggesting is no more than what the situation used to be pre-EU.

When I had a summer job at CERN in 1967 and drove across France and
into Switzerland to get there, any question of visa never arose. And
more than it did visiting Italy, Greece, or even commy Yugoslavia in
1970.

Dave is having hysterics about everything these days. He's suffering
from cognitive dissonance like all lefties are at the minute (i.e.
since brexit and/or Trump).

And you are one of those eternal optimists who have absolutely no clue how
to control immigration in practice. One of the key things many voted leave
for. But almost certainly will be just another broken promise.

It also comes as no surprise you've not noticed how easy and cheap travel
can be today, compared to 1967. Ah well.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Michael Kellett wrote:
You didn't notice one of the main reasons many voted out was to
control immigration from the EU? So just how do you do that while
allowing free access to anyone?

You'd have to basically stop everyone from coming to this country.
Then give permission (visa, etc) to those you wish to admit.
..

If you're going to edit my post, would you mind removing the signature too?
Any half decent newsreader will do that for you.

You are confusing issues - the example was " visa to send over an
engineer to trouble shoot something" - this has nothing to do with
immigration.

It is a foreign person coming into the country. Just how are the
authorities going to know whether he is here to work for a few days or is
an immigrant intending staying for as long as he wants?

"You'd have to basically stop everyone from coming to this country.
Then
give permission (visa, etc) to those you wish to admit."

Why - that doesn't happen now - why should we be so stupid as to start.
Terms vary but most reasonable countires allow short visits without
visas.

Of course it doesn't happen now. We're in the EU which allows free
movement.

I would expect that we would allow visa free travel form the EU and a
great many other places - but not a right stay indefinately.

What's the problem ?

The problem is you've not thought just how you can enforce this.

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 13:48:11 +0000, Eiron wrote:

On 05/03/2017 11:26, tony sayer wrote:

One things for certain the feral Pigeon and Collared Dove populations
never diminish;(..

How did the Americans solve the passenger pigeon problem?

The answer to that has just got to be "Sheer dedication!". That, along
with the American fixation on the idea that every single "problem" can be
solved with a big enough gun.

--
Johnny B Good

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:

FWIW I used to work on instrumentations for 'Far Infra Red' (say 100
micron to 3 mm wavelength) astronomers many years ago. Back then no-one
had detected anything in the FIR sky beyond the Sun, Moon, main solar
planets and *barely* the crab nebula.

Ah. Now why was that? And what has changed so that much more is detected
today?

Various things which feed back on each others.

Better detectors and measurement systems

Better signals and control methods with more powerful techniques and
hardware.

Simply having people realise that when you look you tend to find more
things than anyone expected. So a change of attitude.

Shift from a few 'fringe' researchers to being a main focus of the work of
many astronomers.

Initially, detection in the FIR was limited to using bolometers (heat
detectors where something like the resistance of something changed when it
was warmed by the faint (filtered) signals. The main material at the time
was germanium cooled to a few deg K.

The first FIR 'telescopes' were things like a couple of ex-WW2 searchlight
mirrors. John Bastin at QMC (as was) bought two. Put one on the roof.
(Mile End Rd E1, best seeing in the world... not) and the other on
the back of a 6x4 lorry he and his students used to drive to the
Alps to get higher.

By the time I'd retired the astronomers had the James Clarke Maxwell
Telescope and various other nice systems They now have an array in
Chile high up. Higher than Mauna Kea where I used to use the old
UK Infrared Telecope.

When I started people were *just* on the edge of getting decent
hetereodyne mixers that worked at about 100 GHz. These also used a bulk
effect (in Indium Antimonide, also cooled), not a junction diode. But by
the time I 'retired' people were able to use hetereodyne methods extended
up to over 1 THz and systems had wider bandwidths, higher sensitivity, etc,
etc.

If you're interested in the more ancient/historic end, I did a few webpages
on one project that start he

http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history...aseTheSun.html

Good fun. :-)

MM-Wave/FIR instrumentation was my day job for decades, with Hi-Fi just
a hobby. if you want a MM-Wave radar or similar I can tell you who
you can commission one from. Ditto MM-Wave ESR systems. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely insane
concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are (murder = the killing of one human by another, sadistic
= an anthropomorphic concept). And they very rarely kill humans, but
beware of them learning to use can-openers, because I'm sure they've
got a list.

--
Mike Fleming

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 15:24:25 +0000, Don Pearce wrote:

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 12:34:51 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

That's my take on the numbers too. The process reminds me a bit of the
nonsensical Drake equation.

Well, the *equation* is quite logical. The snag is to fill in sensible
values for the variables. :-)

There has been some progress with this in the last decade or so as we've
finally begun being able to detect and examine extra-Solar planets.
Finding 'life' is a bit harder, though. 8-]

Jim

The variables are part of the problem, but it is also quite an
ill-conditioned equation.

As for the variables themselves, it looks like planets are far more
ubiquitous than it allowed for. It seems that every star that can be
imaged has planets. I suspect that is going to be the case generally -
if there is enough "stuff" to make a star, there will be enough left
over to form planets as well.

The Drake equation started life as a well meaning attempt at *trying* to
quantify the chances of there being another suitably advanced
civilisation elsewhere in the Galaxy that we might be able to detect by
their em emissions whether incidental or targeted radiation.

To be quite frank about it, there are far too many variables missing
from that equation such as the chance of the planet being possessed of a
protective magnetic shield to prevent its parent star's stellar wind from
stripping away its atmosphere within an all too brief billion years, that
is to say, possessed of a sizeable molten iron core.

Also missing is the chance factor for a satellite of sufficient mass and
proximity to provide spin axis stabilisation and regular 'monthly' tidal
effects to help drive evolutionary development of single celled life
forms into the ever more sophisticated multicellular forms required to
evolve the creatures of 'Higher Intelligence' we ultimately desire to be
able to 'communicate with'.

That's just two additional (but extremely vital) factors which I don't
recall seeing in the original Drake Equation. What's worse is that I seem
to recall there being yet more 'vital factors' also absent from the
equation. Factors, which it turns out, after checking out wikipedia's
entries on this subject, are all described in the "Rare Earth Hypothesis".

All of this will be familiar to anyone who follows the BBC's "Horizon"
programmes and other such scientific documentaries. Over the past decade
at least, as I've learned from such documentaries in spite of the
horrible 'dumbing down' that's all too often applied, I've come to
realise that even the most pessimistic estimates for intelligent life
elsewhere in the whole universe by proponents of the Drake Equation have
been way over-optimistic in their estimates.

Quite frankly[1], I think it's a far safer bet to assume that we
represent the *only* example of intelligent life capable of technological
advancement sufficient to appreciate the very fact of its uniqueness
within the Cosmos (and the very Cosmos itself) to have ever arisen at
this point in time, if not ever at all at any time throughout the whole
period of the universe's stellariferous evolution through to its final
demise, than it is to assume that global warming is an entirely
anthropomorphic effect which we somehow have the potential to reverse.

If that is indeed the case, then it seems to me that we, as very
probably the only species in the whole of the Cosmos able to appreciate
the extreme lengths the current Universe has gone to in creating the
conditions for our very existence, ought to be taking more responsibility
in avoiding a premature extinction event of our own making.

[1] This is the second usage of the expression which first time round
only gave me a sneaking suspicion that I had made an unintended pun until
I checked out the wikipedia article on Frank's now 'famous' equation.
This time round, the pun *was* intended, how could I not resist? :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 06/03/2017 20:07, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-06, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely insane
concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are

Ahh, a cat owner.


Nah, he only thinks he is, the cat owns him.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

In article ,
Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely
insane concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are (murder = the killing of one human by another, sadistic
= an anthropomorphic concept). And they very rarely kill humans, but
beware of them learning to use can-openers, because I'm sure they've
got a list.

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -
but that bird is perfectly reasonable eating worms, insects, and other
birds eggs too.

--
*Is there another word for synonym?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:05:41 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:

Also missing is the chance factor for a satellite of sufficient mass
and
proximity to provide spin axis stabilisation and regular 'monthly' tidal
effects to help drive evolutionary development of single celled life
forms into the ever more sophisticated multicellular forms required to
evolve the creatures of 'Higher Intelligence' we ultimately desire to be
able to 'communicate with'.

And a probable collision between the planet and another of similar size
which (a) gives rise to the satellite, (b) leaves a thin enough crust
for plate tectonics to arise and (c) by melting the entire surface in
the collision causing most of the heavy (and in particular radioactive)
metals to sink to the core, thus providing the heat source for the
liquid iron core and consequent magnetic field.

That was precisely what I was alluding to. :-) "Capture" of such a
sizeable body as the moon would have required a braking force to be
applied at just the right time, almost certainly on the order of the
"braking force" that only such a collision would have applied.

Such an event would have boiled off most of the water that had been
collected during the Earth's pre-lunar formation. It's hypothesised that
half of the water now on Earth was delivered during the late heavy
bombardment (LHB) period by icy asteroid and comet strikes.

Assuming this hypothesis is true (the LHB period is not in any doubt
since it has left ample evidence in the cratering of the Moon and Mercury
as well as other rocky bodies such as the larger asteroids and the moons
of Jupiter and Saturn), then this is yet another factor to be added to
the equation.

Yet another factor is the one where our cosy assumption that the planets
were formed where they are presently to be found has been called into
question by the preponderance of all those "Hot Jupiters" being
discovered orbiting those stars with a retinue of planetary bodies. If it
turns out that our own gas giants were formed close in to the Sun and
migrated to their present orbits, it makes the very existence and
location of the Earth in the habitable zone even more improbable.

--
Johnny B Good

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In article , Huge
writes:

On 2017-03-06, Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely insane
concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are

Ahh, a cat owner.

I have been adopted by a cat.

And I notice that you snip the evidence of your insanity. They're
really not human, you know.

--
Mike Fleming

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In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:

In article ,
Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely
insane concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are (murder = the killing of one human by another, sadistic
= an anthropomorphic concept). And they very rarely kill humans, but
beware of them learning to use can-openers, because I'm sure they've
got a list.

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -
but that bird is perfectly reasonable eating worms, insects, and other
birds eggs too.

The most significant inroads our cat has made into the local bird
population is the magpies, which eat songbird eggs.

--
Mike Fleming

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On 07/03/2017 00:43, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , Huge
writes:

Nor me, given that it's a religious issue. Cat owners are largely
insane concerning their murderous, sadistic, vermin pets.

I'm not so insane as to consider my cat to be human, whereas you
evidently are (murder = the killing of one human by another, sadistic
= an anthropomorphic concept). And they very rarely kill humans, but
beware of them learning to use can-openers, because I'm sure they've
got a list.

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

but that bird is perfectly reasonable eating worms, insects, and other
birds eggs too.



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

All of the primates do that.

d

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In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 15:24:25 +0000, Don Pearce wrote:

On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 12:34:51 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:



To be quite frank about it, there are far too many variables missing
from that equation such as the chance of the planet being possessed of a
protective magnetic shield to prevent its parent star's stellar wind
from stripping away its atmosphere within an all too brief billion
years, that is to say, possessed of a sizeable molten iron core.

Many such specifics were swept into more general resulting variable values.



Quite frankly[1], I think it's a far safer bet to assume that we
represent the *only* example of intelligent life capable of
technological advancement sufficient to appreciate the very fact of its
uniqueness within the Cosmos (and the very Cosmos itself) to have ever
arisen at this point in time, if not ever at all at any time throughout
the whole period of the universe's stellariferous evolution through to
its final demise, than it is to assume that global warming is an
entirely anthropomorphic effect which we somehow have the potential to
reverse.

Personally, that seems to me a statistically impausible view given the
sheer scope of the universe and the remaining limits to what we know about
the rest of it in any detail.

What seems more probable is that there are many, many, scattered example of
life and even 'intelligent' life in the Universe - but so far apart in
space and time as to make contact between them far less likely. So
*functionally* it may be indistiguishable from 'no other life', but in
reality in a universe with many disconnected examples.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
[snip]

Such an event would have boiled off most of the water that had been
collected during the Earth's pre-lunar formation. It's hypothesised that
half of the water now on Earth was delivered during the late heavy
bombardment (LHB) period by icy asteroid and comet strikes.

Assuming this hypothesis is true (the LHB period is not in any doubt
since it has left ample evidence in the cratering of the Moon and
Mercury as well as other rocky bodies such as the larger asteroids and
the moons of Jupiter and Saturn), then this is yet another factor to be
added to the equation.

Yet another factor is the one where our cosy assumption that the
planets were formed where they are presently to be found has been
called into question by the preponderance of all those "Hot Jupiters"
being discovered orbiting those stars with a retinue of planetary
bodies. If it turns out that our own gas giants were formed close in to
the Sun and migrated to their present orbits, it makes the very
existence and location of the Earth in the habitable zone even more
improbable.

Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

A recent "Inside Science" (R4) programme reported the finding of 'fossil'
life from more than 4 billion years ago when the Earth was rather different
to now. And it is interesting to wonder if life of a non-earth kind may
exist of some of the moons of the outer planets of even our Solar system.

The story of my scientific life has been that people keep finding things
they didn't expect once they'd developed the tools to be able to find them.
What seems 'impossible' seems to keep turning into 'here it is!" :-)

Going off at another tangent: Keep your eyes peeled for 'spooky action at a
distance' combined with the current puzzles over 'Dark Matter/Energy' to
turn into something quite interesting. I'm starting to think that the rigid
faith that "nothing can go faster than light" may be seen as absurb in the
not-so-far future. 8-]

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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On 07/03/2017 09:03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

All of the primates do that.


While it is still alive?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:14:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 09:03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

All of the primates do that.


While it is still alive?

I know chimps will eat animals, but I don't think I've ever seen it
happen. But they certainly play with the vegetable food like small
children.

d

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On 07/03/2017 12:43, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:14:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 09:03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

All of the primates do that.


While it is still alive?

I know chimps will eat animals, but I don't think I've ever seen it
happen. But they certainly play with the vegetable food like small
children.


The point is that cats can play with their prey before killing it. The
only other animal that does that is Homo Sapiens

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

On 07/03/2017 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 07/03/2017 12:43, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:14:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 07/03/2017 09:03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a
bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with
its food.

All of the primates do that.


While it is still alive?

I know chimps will eat animals, but I don't think I've ever seen it
happen. But they certainly play with the vegetable food like small
children.


The point is that cats can play with their prey before killing it. The
only other animal that does that is Homo Sapiens

And foxes, bears, seals, dolphins etc.

--
Eiron.

Baroque Musical Chairs
 

Graeme Wall said:
On 07/03/2017 12:43, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:14:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:
On 07/03/2017 09:03, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:54:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Interesting indeed that a cat is a sadistic killer when it eats a bird -

Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its food.

All of the primates do that.

While it is still alive?

I know chimps will eat animals, but I don't think I've ever seen it
happen. But they certainly play with the vegetable food like small
children.

The point is that cats can play with their prey before killing it. The
only other animal that does that is Homo Sapiens

I think it may be why some people have an objection to eating dogs ?


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html