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In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its
food.


Yup. I always take the dog out for a walk before eating it.

--
*Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On 07/03/2017 14:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its
food.


Yup. I always take the dog out for a walk before eating it.


Doesn't that make it rather tough?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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On 07/03/2017 10:22, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
[snip]

Such an event would have boiled off most of the water that had been
collected during the Earth's pre-lunar formation. It's hypothesised that
half of the water now on Earth was delivered during the late heavy
bombardment (LHB) period by icy asteroid and comet strikes.

Assuming this hypothesis is true (the LHB period is not in any doubt
since it has left ample evidence in the cratering of the Moon and
Mercury as well as other rocky bodies such as the larger asteroids and
the moons of Jupiter and Saturn), then this is yet another factor to be
added to the equation.

Yet another factor is the one where our cosy assumption that the
planets were formed where they are presently to be found has been
called into question by the preponderance of all those "Hot Jupiters"
being discovered orbiting those stars with a retinue of planetary
bodies. If it turns out that our own gas giants were formed close in to
the Sun and migrated to their present orbits, it makes the very
existence and location of the Earth in the habitable zone even more
improbable.

Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

A recent "Inside Science" (R4) programme reported the finding of 'fossil'
life from more than 4 billion years ago when the Earth was rather different
to now. And it is interesting to wonder if life of a non-earth kind may
exist of some of the moons of the outer planets of even our Solar system.

The story of my scientific life has been that people keep finding things
they didn't expect once they'd developed the tools to be able to find them.
What seems 'impossible' seems to keep turning into 'here it is!" :-)

Going off at another tangent: Keep your eyes peeled for 'spooky action at a
distance' combined with the current puzzles over 'Dark Matter/Energy' to
turn into something quite interesting. I'm starting to think that the rigid
faith that "nothing can go faster than light" may be seen as absurb in the
not-so-far future. 8-]



There's an article on that in the current New Scientist, haven't read it
yet.



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 07/03/2017 14:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
Cats are one of the few animals, other than humans, that play with its
food.


Yup. I always take the dog out for a walk before eating it.


Doesn't that make it rather tough?

No. A border collie. Soft as anything. ;-)

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On 07-03-17 11:22, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

So finally a chance to use the phrase "It's life, Jim, but not as we
know it" for real...

Julf

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In article , Tim Streater
writes:

You bin reading too much Fred Hoyle.

I read "The Black Cloud". That was too much Fred Hoyle.

--
Mike Fleming

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On Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:22:17 +0000, Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
[snip]

Such an event would have boiled off most of the water that had been
collected during the Earth's pre-lunar formation. It's hypothesised
that half of the water now on Earth was delivered during the late heavy
bombardment (LHB) period by icy asteroid and comet strikes.

Assuming this hypothesis is true (the LHB period is not in any doubt
since it has left ample evidence in the cratering of the Moon and
Mercury as well as other rocky bodies such as the larger asteroids and
the moons of Jupiter and Saturn), then this is yet another factor to be
added to the equation.

Yet another factor is the one where our cosy assumption that the
planets were formed where they are presently to be found has been
called into question by the preponderance of all those "Hot Jupiters"
being discovered orbiting those stars with a retinue of planetary
bodies. If it turns out that our own gas giants were formed close in to
the Sun and migrated to their present orbits, it makes the very
existence and location of the Earth in the habitable zone even more
improbable.

Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

That's a point made by the critics of the Rare Earth Hypothesis (and a
valid one if your only concern is of lifeforms that may never be able to
evolve past the fish stage on account of lethal conditions on the
planet's surface or beyond the hydrosphere).

That's not to say that fish with a level of intelligence on a par with
our own can't eventually evolve and develop societies capable of
scientific discoveries. The problems such an intelligent species would
face in developing technologically just seem insurmountable. The smelting
of mineral ores and glass-working in an oceanic environment, for example,
would require an expedition to the dry but lethal surface in an effort
rather akin to our own, working in the micro-gravity conditions of the ISS
to extend our scientific knowledge.

In the case of our hypothetical intelligent fish species, this level of
effort would be simply to develop metallurgical skills and discover high
voltage properties so vital to the workings of X-Ray machines and cathode
ray tubes in an artificially dry atmosphere along with all the other
experiments that require a dry atmosphere so alien to a fish based
intelligence.

I'm not saying that such an intelligent alien fish species couldn't
overcome these seemingly insurmountable obstacles, just that they're
going to be held back somewhat by the environment in which they've
evolved if surface conditions due to the lack of a magnetosphere and the
spin stabilising influence of a sizeable close in natural satellite acts
as an evolutionary roadblock to them becoming surface dwelling air
breathing creatures able to even observe the very Cosmos itself.

However, second guessing how life might evolve towards a technological
supremacy in such alien environments is rather futile in the absence of
any evidence of the existence of such lifeforms. We may be able to run
our own experiments in evolutionary genetics when we finally know all
there is to know about how to build our own experimental cells which we
can use to seed our artificial test environments designed to mimic such
conditions on candidate exo-planets and or moons in our own backyard. If
we get really clever at computer modelling we may even be able to run
accelerated simulations but I suspect, only after we've solved the issue
of accurately modelling the Earth's weather and climate.


A recent "Inside Science" (R4) programme reported the finding of
'fossil' life from more than 4 billion years ago when the Earth was
rather different to now. And it is interesting to wonder if life of a
non-earth kind may exist on some of the moons of the outer planets of
even our Solar system.

The story of my scientific life has been that people keep finding things
they didn't expect once they'd developed the tools to be able to find
them.
What seems 'impossible' seems to keep turning into 'here it is!" :-)

Going off at another tangent: Keep your eyes peeled for 'spooky action
at a distance' combined with the current puzzles over 'Dark
Matter/Energy' to turn into something quite interesting. I'm starting to
think that the rigid faith that "nothing can go faster than light" may
be seen as absurd in the not-so-far future. 8-]

That seems to be the 'track record' for our scientific discoveries. Time
after time, we keep discovering 'unpalatable truths' to upset our cosy
assumptions about how the Cosmos works. Who knows? Perhaps learning the
'unpalatable truths' and the upsets these cause are simply the price we
pay for our technological progress (Wormholes anyone? - Sure beats the
Hell out of being fried by induced cosmic rays trying to attain
relativistic speeds riding a Bussard Ram Jet to our nearest stellar
neighbours in a reasonable time frame). :-)

--
Johnny B Good

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In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

That's a point made by the critics of the Rare Earth Hypothesis (and a
valid one if your only concern is of lifeforms that may never be able to
evolve past the fish stage on account of lethal conditions on the
planet's surface or beyond the hydrosphere).

[snip]

Curious that you take that for granted - largely on the basis that we have
no actual info on what might be out across such a vast universe. Even using
'fish' as an example is Earth-centric.


Going off at another tangent: Keep your eyes peeled for 'spooky action
at a distance' combined with the current puzzles over 'Dark
Matter/Energy' to turn into something quite interesting. I'm starting
to think that the rigid faith that "nothing can go faster than light"
may be seen as absurd in the not-so-far future. 8-]

That seems to be the 'track record' for our scientific discoveries.
Time after time, we keep discovering 'unpalatable truths' to upset our
cosy assumptions about how the Cosmos works. Who knows?

indeed. See 'fish' above. :-)

I have no idea if any other life exists beyond Earth, or how much, or what
levels of intelligence, etc, it may have. Only that the Universe is 'big'
beyond our easy ability to grasp and we haven't yet understood or even
detected event a tiny fraction of its detail. And that, time after time,
people have told me something was 'impossible' that later on became
regarded as 'everyone knows that, its obvious'. :-)

The unimaginable or ridiculous becomes the routine.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:
Against all such factors, of course, is the possibility of life as we
*don't* know it. i.e. without needing a planet anything like Earth.

That's a point made by the critics of the Rare Earth Hypothesis (and a
valid one if your only concern is of lifeforms that may never be able to
evolve past the fish stage on account of lethal conditions on the
planet's surface or beyond the hydrosphere).

[snip]

Curious that you take that for granted - largely on the basis that we have
no actual info on what might be out across such a vast universe. Even using
'fish' as an example is Earth-centric.


Going off at another tangent: Keep your eyes peeled for 'spooky action
at a distance' combined with the current puzzles over 'Dark
Matter/Energy' to turn into something quite interesting. I'm starting
to think that the rigid faith that "nothing can go faster than light"
may be seen as absurd in the not-so-far future. 8-]

That seems to be the 'track record' for our scientific discoveries.
Time after time, we keep discovering 'unpalatable truths' to upset our
cosy assumptions about how the Cosmos works. Who knows?

indeed. See 'fish' above. :-)

I have no idea if any other life exists beyond Earth, or how much, or what
levels of intelligence, etc, it may have. Only that the Universe is 'big'
beyond our easy ability to grasp and we haven't yet understood or even
detected event a tiny fraction of its detail. And that, time after time,
people have told me something was 'impossible' that later on became
regarded as 'everyone knows that, its obvious'. :-)

The unimaginable or ridiculous becomes the routine.

These conditions are only possibly-insurmountable obstacles to becoming Life
As We Know It. Maybe life as we _don't_ know it would do something else
entirely ?

Cue that thing about the universe being stranger than we /can/ imagine ...



--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

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In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I have no idea if any other life exists beyond Earth, or how much, or
what levels of intelligence, etc, it may have. Only that the Universe is
'big' beyond our easy ability to grasp and we haven't yet understood or
even detected event a tiny fraction of its detail. And that, time after
time, people have told me something was 'impossible' that later on
became regarded as 'everyone knows that, its obvious'. :-)

The unimaginable or ridiculous becomes the routine.

Quite. With the universe being to all intents and purposes infinite, logic
surely suggests there will be other life forms out there?

--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On 09/03/2017 05:23, Johnny B Good wrote:
Sure beats the
Hell out of being fried by induced cosmic rays trying to attain
relativistic speeds riding a Bussard Ram Jet

I though the idea was the mind bogglingly strong magnetic field
protected you from that sort of stuff?

Andy

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In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:
On 09/03/2017 05:23, Johnny B Good wrote:
Sure beats the Hell out of being fried by induced cosmic rays trying
to attain relativistic speeds riding a Bussard Ram Jet

I though the idea was the mind bogglingly strong magnetic field
protected you from that sort of stuff?

IIRC later observations and analysis concluded that the energy density of
the intersteller medium was too low for Bussard to be practical. i.e. the
thrust-drag came out negative. But I threw out all the relevant journals I
had many years ago, so this is based on my unreliable memory.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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On 10/03/2017 09:42, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:
On 09/03/2017 05:23, Johnny B Good wrote:
Sure beats the Hell out of being fried by induced cosmic rays trying
to attain relativistic speeds riding a Bussard Ram Jet

I though the idea was the mind bogglingly strong magnetic field
protected you from that sort of stuff?

IIRC later observations and analysis concluded that the energy density of
the intersteller medium was too low for Bussard to be practical. i.e. the
thrust-drag came out negative. But I threw out all the relevant journals I
had many years ago, so this is based on my unreliable memory.

So it's supposed to collect cosmic scrap?
That would explain why Interstellar Overdrive is similar to the theme
from Steptoe and Son.

--
Eiron.

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On 05/03/2017 19:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Dave is talking cock again, that is the problem. What you are
suggesting is no more than what the situation used to be pre-EU.

When I had a summer job at CERN in 1967 and drove across France and
into Switzerland to get there, any question of visa never arose. And
more than it did visiting Italy, Greece, or even commy Yugoslavia in
1970.

Dave is having hysterics about everything these days. He's suffering
from cognitive dissonance like all lefties are at the minute (i.e.
since brexit and/or Trump).

And you are one of those eternal optimists who have absolutely no clue how
to control immigration in practice. One of the key things many voted leave
for. But almost certainly will be just another broken promise.

It also comes as no surprise you've not noticed how easy and cheap travel
can be today, compared to 1967. Ah well.

Petrol was five bob a gallon in 1967, much cheaper
than today.

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On 10/03/2017 18:50, Andrew wrote:
On 05/03/2017 19:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Dave is talking cock again, that is the problem. What you are
suggesting is no more than what the situation used to be pre-EU.

When I had a summer job at CERN in 1967 and drove across France and
into Switzerland to get there, any question of visa never arose. And
more than it did visiting Italy, Greece, or even commy Yugoslavia in
1970.

Dave is having hysterics about everything these days. He's suffering
from cognitive dissonance like all lefties are at the minute (i.e.
since brexit and/or Trump).

And you are one of those eternal optimists who have absolutely no clue
how
to control immigration in practice. One of the key things many voted
leave
for. But almost certainly will be just another broken promise.

It also comes as no surprise you've not noticed how easy and cheap travel
can be today, compared to 1967. Ah well.

Petrol was five bob a gallon in 1967, much cheaper
than today.

How much did you earn in 1967 compared to now?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.