Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I
proved this some years ago......

The problem with this is that the surfaces were by far the least of
the differences in circumstances between the two situations - what
made you choose the surfaces as the relevant parameter?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I
proved this some years ago......

I've posted the true story again last night.

I heard a US woman gave birth to a live goat... true story!

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:47:56 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote:

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

[Snip]

Yes, they do.

No they B. don't.

Sure they do - why wouldn't they?

Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always
sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was
a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to
the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not
which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good
margin.

It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I
suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if
you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched
conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value.


SNIP SNIP.

I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R
load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps
are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a
reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite
clearly.

Shoosh! You can *not* post to this newgroup with any suggestion that -
heaven forfend! - there could possibly be any connection between
measurements (boo, hiss!) and sound quality! :-)

IME, amps with wide bandwidth *and* low HF IMD (while driving a
simulated speaker load, as you suggest) are what Doug Self would call
'blameless', i.e. they don't add any sound of their own.


I would agree except for one point. Doug's 'blameless' design doesn't
measure very well into reactive loads. It was one of those that I was
referring to!

(Oh for the days when I had a set of B&K and Audio Precision test
equipment at work)
--
Chris Morriss

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I
proved this some years ago......

You may well have proved it to yourself. But then countless other such
nonsenses get 'proved' every day.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Strikes me this thread needs a good dose of the 'Belt' theory.

For a good laugh have a dig into

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/index.html

then go and put a bit of foil under one foot (note only ONE foot) of
your CD player and see how it improves the sound.......!!!


--
Woody

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:38:25 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I
proved this some years ago......

The problem with this is that the surfaces were by far the least of
the differences in circumstances between the two situations - what
made you choose the surfaces as the relevant parameter?

I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about
'the object' it was placed on?

Cheers,

Bob.

How about the location with respect to the speakers? I'm still
thinking microphony here...

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:08:34 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES
because I proved this some years ago......

You may well have proved it to yourself. But then countless other such
nonsenses get 'proved' every day.

I am asking you to believe what I said in the story is in no way
intentionally fabricated. I accept that requires some trust on your part.

I am also happy to hear any serious and non insulting possible alternative
reason for what we observed.

Another anecdote which again is honestly told.

When I purchased my P7 (April 2003) the shop I use suggested I tried a
platform they said they had found interesting. The platform was all black
and consisted of two parts. What looked like a plain board with some small
feet on each of two runners under the board. The second part was an X
shaped object that you were supposed to place on end under the board.

I took these objects home and my wife and I had a hour or so playing with
them. Under my testing methods (it was my money) there was IMHO a cleaner
sharper bass when the P7 moved from the wooden hi-fi unit onto the
stand/board. But then I tried moving the board and amplifier back on the
Hi-Fi unit and off the stand and heard no difference. I removed the board
and the bass deteriorated again.

Honestly there was no change with the X stand that we could hear but the
board was quite worthwhile. Now I know you have to believe my account but
how on earth can I decide (by fooling myself) that I can hear one thing
I've never tried before but not another using exactly the same testing
method at the same time? A serious answer is welcome another "you're a
liar or something unmentionable" please don't bother.

Cheers,

Bob.

Not a liar, but seriously deluded. I can't think of anybody has
reported such an effect in a situation where they didn't know whether
it was on a stand or not.

Autosuggestion is an unbelievably powerful thing. Grab yourself a copy
of the McGurk effect and report back what you hear sighted and
unsighted. http://www.media.uio.no/personer/arn...k_english.html
You only need to close your eyes to make it work.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:37:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:38:25 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about
'the object' it was placed on?

How about the location with respect to the speakers? I'm still
thinking microphony here...

Well yes I'm sure it was microphony I was just amazed at how great was its
effect on solid state devices.

The shelf was about 1 foot up the inside brick wall of the cupboard. It
was one of those steel double track items with the shelf itself made of
thick MDF. The amp also spanned the full width between the supports so did
not really rely on the MDF shelf.

As for distance from the speakers, when my wife was lifting the amp on and
off the shelf she was placing the amp on the carpeted floor under the
shelf or very nearly.


Cheers,

Bob.

The point is that with a solid state amp, you should be able to stand
the thing on top of the speakers with absolutely no audible effects.
There was clearly something badly amiss with this one. That being so,
you really can't generalise to other amplifiers.

It is not "an effect on solid state devices" it is an effect on an
amplifier with a defect.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:37:40 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:31:51 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

[Snip]

That is of course just the kind of lying distortion that we've come to
expect - because you have *no* substantive argument, you're just wind
and ****.

With the exception of Jim who seems to remain mature and well mannered at
all times the above paragraph seems to sum you all up.

Jim is more polite, as he is used to dealing with students, but what
you fail to understand is that we agree about you.

Rude, provocative, arrogant

Yup, guilty as charged.

and closed minded with the vocabulary of the
gutter.

Absolutely not in possession of a closed mind, and I use language
which in my judgement will elicit a desired response.

I cannot respect anyone who behaves in such a manner in a public
forum.

I have no interest in gaining your respect. You might perhaps have had
an interest in proving your case, but I note that you are conveniently
ignoring all such opportunities. It's comforting to know that there
are still people who have no interest in collecting £1,000 by
*proving* what they claim to be obvious, and thereby having the
satisfaction of proving me to be wrong. What a surprise.....

Yes, I know you've won (or so you think) so why would I be bothered
by the opinions of the gutter.

No one has 'won' here, you have simply proved that you are indeed all
e-wind and ****.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
In article , Don Pearce
wrote:

[Snip]

I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years
ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it.

I'm afraid that your statement seems at best ambiguous.

By "amplifiers" do you mean:

A) all amplifiers in existence

or

B) the selection of amplifiers you listened to in the specific
circumstance in which you listened.

Yes okay, I got carried away whilst writing that and missed out an
important few words. Unfortunately, that looked like it fitted in with
another of my arguments anyway what i meant to say there was...

I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I
proved this some years ago......

You just don't understand the nature of proof, do you? You don't
*know* any such thing.

I've posted the true story again last night.

Also, by "proved" do you mean:

A) An objective and testable method which demonstrates your assertion

or

B) You decided you could hear a difference in the circumstances

To the satisfaction of all present in a very good if not perfect test.
This was not subtle.

********.

FWIW my experience is that there are cases/circumstances/examples where
I think I can hear differences between amplifiers, and others where I
can't. My impression is that some similarly qualified statement would
apply for other people as well. However I then deduce from this that:

A) Some amplifiers may not be "good" if your definition of "good" means
that they should sound the same. (This seems to me to follow by simply
logic from the claim that "good amps all sound the same".[1] )

B) That this depends upon the circumstances of use. Thus some amps may be
indistinguishable with some music at some levels with some speakers, etc,
but show differences when used with different circumstances of use. Hence
"good" here may depend upon the details of use.

I can't say that "all amplifiers sound different" as I haven't heard them
*all*, and I can't cover all possible circumstances of use.

I have not heard all that many amps and those that I have heard have not
all been together. What I can say is that of the amps I've listened to
lately some have had distinct sounds which readily identify them like my
old Yamaha sounding quite hard and the Arcam AVR300 the exact opposite in
being warm and laid back. The Denon amp and my P7/AV8 to my ears appeared
more neutral although that is only my perception not a statement of fact.
I wouldn't mind betting all the amps had a good ruler flat frequency
response though.

Likely, but this is only one measure. It is however one which is
accepted under the rules of the amplifier challenge, so what's your
problem? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!

Cue end of bad Jack Nicholson impression..................

I'm just fed up with 'all good amps sound the same' which is either a
load of rubbish or there are very few good amps on the market take your
pick.

It is neither - it is an easily proveable fact which applies to a
large number of modern SS amplifiers. Of course, you will keep ducking
and diving to avoid this, since it doesn't agree with your amateurish
preconceptions, won't you?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering