Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:37:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:38:25 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about
'the object' it was placed on?

How about the location with respect to the speakers? I'm still
thinking microphony here...

Well yes I'm sure it was microphony I was just amazed at how great was its
effect on solid state devices.

I would be equally amazed. It is *possible* that this kit amp was
really badly designed, or really badly built, but I have *never* come
across anything close to the effect you have described in *any* SS
amplifier.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:55:44 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote:

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:47:56 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote:

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

[Snip]

Yes, they do.

No they B. don't.

Sure they do - why wouldn't they?

Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always
sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was
a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to
the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not
which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good
margin.

It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I
suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if
you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched
conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value.


SNIP SNIP.

I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R
load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps
are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a
reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite
clearly.

Shoosh! You can *not* post to this newgroup with any suggestion that -
heaven forfend! - there could possibly be any connection between
measurements (boo, hiss!) and sound quality! :-)

IME, amps with wide bandwidth *and* low HF IMD (while driving a
simulated speaker load, as you suggest) are what Doug Self would call
'blameless', i.e. they don't add any sound of their own.


I would agree except for one point. Doug's 'blameless' design doesn't
measure very well into reactive loads. It was one of those that I was
referring to!

I wasn't referring to his designs, I was referring to his description!

(Oh for the days when I had a set of B&K and Audio Precision test
equipment at work)

Modern PC-based gear such as the National Instruments kit pretty much
makes those standalone devices obsolete.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:08:34 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

When I purchased my P7 (April 2003) the shop I use suggested I tried a
platform they said they had found interesting. The platform was all black
and consisted of two parts. What looked like a plain board with some small
feet on each of two runners under the board. The second part was an X
shaped object that you were supposed to place on end under the board.

I took these objects home and my wife and I had a hour or so playing with
them. Under my testing methods (it was my money) there was IMHO a cleaner
sharper bass when the P7 moved from the wooden hi-fi unit onto the
stand/board. But then I tried moving the board and amplifier back on the
Hi-Fi unit and off the stand and heard no difference. I removed the board
and the bass deteriorated again.

Honestly there was no change with the X stand that we could hear but the
board was quite worthwhile. Now I know you have to believe my account but
how on earth can I decide (by fooling myself) that I can hear one thing
I've never tried before but not another using exactly the same testing
method at the same time? A serious answer is welcome another "you're a
liar or something unmentionable" please don't bother.

I don't think that anyone has accused you of being a liar. A gullible
clown is of course a horse of an entirely different colour...... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:31:51 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

[Snip]

No they B. don't.

Sure they do - why wouldn't they?

As a guess because amplifiers are not measured playing music into real
loads or because not all the important audible factors are getting
measured at all. It is likely we don't know it all, science has a history
of this.

I'm talking about *listening* tests, not measurements.

But can't you see that this is all degrees, all amps sound different it is
just that some are closer than others.

********, I have tried at least a dozen amps which are *totally*
indistinguishable. I can of course predict your next comment.......

Just try it.

Listen mate, I've been building my own amplifiers and speakers for over 40
years and I do try things this is why I can hear things.

You can't hear jack **** - you're making this more obvious with every
post.

It is the
Electronic know alls that coincidentally are deaf because they don't need
to listen they know it can't sound different.

By that comment alone, you demonstrate that you are the arrogant one
who is all wind and ****. Come on over and *prove* your case (and make
a pile of cash) or keep your half-assed opinions to yourself.

Besides I don't know anyone that listens to their hi-fi in an LMDBT
manner they just switch it on and turn up the wick until it sounds
right, that's what we did and the Denon was better QED.

Bull****. Just *try* it.

I won't respond to that.

Clearly not. I wonder why..................

What would you have people do, buy the cheapest amp that had the
facilities they need and ignore the sound?

I'd have them buy the cheapest amp that had the power and facilities
required, and that sounded just like any other good amplifier. That's
the other reason I keep the Krell - it's a useful reference.

So at the end of the day you have to listen to amps to find the one you
prefer because amps do sound different and none of them are perfect. Give
me strength.

That is of course just the kind of lying distortion that we've come to
expect - because you have *no* substantive argument, you're just wind
and ****.


Now, where have we heard these words before?? :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote


Fair point, but are we saying that some of the worlds biggest names in
hi-fi are producing amplifiers that are audibly distorted and not good
after all these years?


Yes, ridiculous isn't it!!

Given that most ss amps sound mediocre at best, I reckon you'd have to go a
long way to single out any well-known make/model as being particularly
*bad*.....

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I have no way to deal with the fact that you don't believe me.

You're a liar. I offered you 10Gs to prove to me the effect is real. You
failed to take it up in true cowardly fashion.

I can
understand if you wish to argue a point but if you don't accept what I'm
telling you then there is no point in continuing.

Why should I accept what you are telling me when your credibility is
that thin - Tell me, are you rich enough that 10G is nothing to you?
Even Bill Gates is on record as saying he'd pick up a 1000usd bill if he
dropped it on the street...

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about
'the object' it was placed on?

You said it was in a cupboard?

are you sure the amps presence in the cupboard didnt simply make the
entire cupboard resonate in some undesireable way?

did the cupboard have electrical cablign nearby (under the floorboards?)

there are any number of possibilities, yet you made no mention of how
you narrowed them down to the surface.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I am asking you to believe what I said in the story is in no way
intentionally fabricated.

No-one doubted that.

What people are annoyed about is your insistence that the effect can be
generalised to all SS amps, and that it WAS the surface, despite no
scientfic analysis to affirm / disprove your hypothesis.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Don Pearce wrote:

Autosuggestion is an unbelievably powerful thing.

Even when you are aware of and expecting it.

The number of times Ive done something like rebuild X-windows, run Quake
or somtheing and thought 'wow, this feels WAY smoother', only to later
realise I forgot to run 'make install' and was thus running the original
version, I dont want to think about.

DBT is the ONLY answer to this kind of problem. and if you aint done
one, you dont know jack.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:31:10 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:31:51 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

What would you have people do, buy the cheapest amp that had the
facilities they need and ignore the sound?

I'd have them buy the cheapest amp that had the power and facilities
required, and that sounded just like any other good amplifier. That's
the other reason I keep the Krell - it's a useful reference.

So at the end of the day you have to listen to amps to find the one you
prefer because amps do sound different and none of them are perfect. Give
me strength.

That is of course just the kind of lying distortion that we've come to
expect - because you have *no* substantive argument, you're just wind
and ****.

Now, where have we heard these words before?? :-)

Every time some jerk makes a wild claim that he fails to back up, and
then moves on to lies and distortions because that's all he's got? :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering