It may be "terribly bad form" to quote a post from another NG, but
I know there are many on this group who do not subscribe to RAT,
on which the following post from Frank McVey appeared.
The comments he makes apply equally or more to UKRA which has
perhaps degenerated more than most groups. UKRA seems to be
made up of some 10 or so stalwarts, with other occasional
contributors. There are without doubt many times than number
who read but never post, due to the bar room brawl mentality
adopted by some.

We are doing ourselves a great disfavour by allowing this to
continue, and keeping out a large number of people who
would have much to contribute, and would greatly improve
the Signal to Noise ratio of this group.

Kunniottaen

Iain



Frank McVey wrote:

I've been lurking here for a wee while, hoping to learn from those more able
than me, and, in time, to contribute something to those who
are new to valve/tube technology. But it's become apparent to me that,
while some of the guys on this group are very well-informed and talented,
they seem to have few social skills; they don't make any attempt to pull
together for the common good of the group, and, in many cases, their
postings lack even the most basic courtesy.

Gentlemen, - and you know who you are - you should be ashamed of yourselves.
In the www and usenet, we have the greatest force there has ever been for
people of all nations and all levels of expertise to come together, share
our knowledge and experience, and to create something which would be greater
than the sum of the parts. It genuinely pains me so see so many
obviously-talented people wasting their time and energy on trivial
point-scoring and back-biting, turning intelligent debate into self-serving
argument, and reducing potentially-valuable threads to the level of a
playground bunfight.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:25:33 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:

It may be "terribly bad form" to quote a post from another NG, but
I know there are many on this group who do not subscribe to RAT,
on which the following post from Frank McVey appeared.
The comments he makes apply equally or more to UKRA which has
perhaps degenerated more than most groups. UKRA seems to be
made up of some 10 or so stalwarts, with other occasional
contributors. There are without doubt many times than number
who read but never post, due to the bar room brawl mentality
adopted by some.

We are doing ourselves a great disfavour by allowing this to
continue, and keeping out a large number of people who
would have much to contribute, and would greatly improve
the Signal to Noise ratio of this group.

Kunniottaen

Iain

Iain, unfortunately - or should I say fortunately - this is not a
moderated group, so there is no way to keep anybody out. And even more
unfortunately some of the most prolific posters are either peddlers of
myths or downright pig-rude (both in some cases). But hey - that makes
the group fun; I wouldn't want it to be some stuffy repose of academe.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Iain, unfortunately - or should I say fortunately - this is not a
moderated group, so there is no way to keep anybody out. And even more
unfortunately some of the most prolific posters are either peddlers of
myths or downright pig-rude (both in some cases). But hey - that makes
the group fun; I wouldn't want it to be some stuffy repose of academe.

d

My point is Don, that *we* the members of this group are keeping people
out by our churlish behaviour, and the influx of new blood (or old blood
for that matter:-) would add a new dimension.

Kunniottaen

Iain

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:56:24 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Iain, unfortunately - or should I say fortunately - this is not a
moderated group, so there is no way to keep anybody out. And even more
unfortunately some of the most prolific posters are either peddlers of
myths or downright pig-rude (both in some cases). But hey - that makes
the group fun; I wouldn't want it to be some stuffy repose of academe.

d

My point is Don, that *we* the members of this group are keeping people
out by our churlish behaviour, and the influx of new blood (or old blood
for that matter:-) would add a new dimension.

Kunniottaen

Iain


Ah - sorry, I misread what you wrote. But I think that anybody who has
the stomach to read what goes on here - and it isn't that bad by
Usenet standards - should have the courage to dive in. Sure some of us
get annoyed and may have a bit of a shout. But there aren't too many
who would be deliberately rude to somebody new showing up.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

But there aren't too many who would be deliberately rude to somebody new
showing up.


There are a number of posters who are consistently rude to various amateurs who
- quite rightly - post about their hobby. The 'justification' of this rudeness
is that 'people who peddle myths should be ruthlessly treated'. The same number
of posters responsible for most of the rudeness are themselves the self
appointed judge and jury of what constitutes a myth. A myth can consist of
approximately anything, but in particular anything involving valves and vinyl,
and including subjects which are routinely discussed on a whole number of other
specialist forums, and example being the sound of various componants. Until and
unless the band of Holy 'myth exposers' get down off their pulpits and stop
satirising and insulting members there is no hope for this newsgroup. All the
signs are that they won't, and you bet your life that this post will be
answered by all the usual posts we have seen for years saying that - of course
- they are right and we are all poor misgoided idiots. And so it goes on, and
so it will go on. They will say 'of course it will go on as long as people
peddle myths' and feel fully justified in keeping up their stream of invective.
The rest of us will sigh and use other forums. This is the only newsgroup in
which I killfile members - I don't read or reply to their posts. It sounds
cynical, but I would urge others to do the same. If rude posters consistently
get no response from anyone, they will have no basis for conversation. Then let
them be the ones to have to find other newsgroups to rant on.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

On 10 Dec 2004 13:25:36 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

But there aren't too many who would be deliberately rude to somebody new
showing up.


There are a number of posters who are consistently rude to various amateurs who
- quite rightly - post about their hobby. The 'justification' of this rudeness
is that 'people who peddle myths should be ruthlessly treated'. The same number
of posters responsible for most of the rudeness are themselves the self
appointed judge and jury of what constitutes a myth. A myth can consist of
approximately anything, but in particular anything involving valves and vinyl,
and including subjects which are routinely discussed on a whole number of other
specialist forums, and example being the sound of various componants. Until and
unless the band of Holy 'myth exposers' get down off their pulpits and stop
satirising and insulting members there is no hope for this newsgroup. All the
signs are that they won't, and you bet your life that this post will be
answered by all the usual posts we have seen for years saying that - of course
- they are right and we are all poor misgoided idiots. And so it goes on, and
so it will go on. They will say 'of course it will go on as long as people
peddle myths' and feel fully justified in keeping up their stream of invective.
The rest of us will sigh and use other forums. This is the only newsgroup in
which I killfile members - I don't read or reply to their posts. It sounds
cynical, but I would urge others to do the same. If rude posters consistently
get no response from anyone, they will have no basis for conversation. Then let
them be the ones to have to find other newsgroups to rant on.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Andy, by far the rudest poster on this group is probably its most
vociferous vinylphile. I'm willing to bet that you haven't killfiled
him, though, because he appears to sit on your side of the fence.

Would I be right?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:30:09 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

On 10 Dec 2004 13:25:36 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

But there aren't too many who would be deliberately rude to somebody new
showing up.


There are a number of posters who are consistently rude to various amateurs who
- quite rightly - post about their hobby. The 'justification' of this rudeness
is that 'people who peddle myths should be ruthlessly treated'. The same number
of posters responsible for most of the rudeness are themselves the self
appointed judge and jury of what constitutes a myth. A myth can consist of
approximately anything, but in particular anything involving valves and vinyl,
and including subjects which are routinely discussed on a whole number of other
specialist forums, and example being the sound of various componants. Until and
unless the band of Holy 'myth exposers' get down off their pulpits and stop
satirising and insulting members there is no hope for this newsgroup. All the
signs are that they won't, and you bet your life that this post will be
answered by all the usual posts we have seen for years saying that - of course
- they are right and we are all poor misgoided idiots. And so it goes on, and
so it will go on. They will say 'of course it will go on as long as people
peddle myths' and feel fully justified in keeping up their stream of invective.
The rest of us will sigh and use other forums. This is the only newsgroup in
which I killfile members - I don't read or reply to their posts. It sounds
cynical, but I would urge others to do the same. If rude posters consistently
get no response from anyone, they will have no basis for conversation. Then let
them be the ones to have to find other newsgroups to rant on.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Andy, by far the rudest poster on this group is probably its most
vociferous vinylphile. I'm willing to bet that you haven't killfiled
him, though, because he appears to sit on your side of the fence.

Would I be right?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Oops! Didn't mean vinylphile, I meant valve-phile.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Andy, by far the rudest poster on this group is probably its most
vociferous vinylphile. I'm willing to bet that you haven't killfiled him,
though, because he appears to sit on your side of the fence.
Would I be right?

Don, I think you should consider the fact that he has never ever been rude to
me. What reason would I - personally - have (not talking about others here) to
killfile somebody who has always treated me with courtesy and good humour?

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
My point is Don, that *we* the members of this group are keeping people
out by our churlish behaviour, and the influx of new blood (or old blood
for that matter:-) would add a new dimension.

I doubt it. Those who are 'put off' by the 'churlish behaviour' are likely
to be those who don't want their views challenged.

If you wish such a group - where say valvies can discuss their hobby and
make the most outrageous claims with impunity - then you need to set up a
group where that is in the charter.

UKRAV is such a group where vinyl enthusiasts can 'wax' lyrical about its
'advantages'. But even those who set it up - for the self same reasons as
you seem to want - ignore it and post here. Draw your own conclusions.

--
*(on a baby-size shirt) "Party -- my crib -- two a.m

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

...he appears to sit on your side of the fence.Oops! Didn't mean vinylphile, I
meant valve-phile. DoP

I couldn't care what he or anyone else is into - that's their business. As a
matter of fact, where is this so-called 'fence' you talk about? Who made it?
Who maintains it? When can we pull it down? I care about what we all care
about, which is to say who is and who isn't personally rude to us. This
sectarian - 'vinyl/valveophile' stuff doesn't come from me.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.