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Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Patrick Turner" wrote I'll make you something really good that works. OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid, or about usd $700. *Ding!!* I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. *Ding!!* But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great quality. Probably? If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans...?? (Pat, *if* you were a bird you would probably fly backwards to keep the sand outta yer eyes....!! ;-) Nice paint on the outside though. (Didn't hear Ian mention throwing in a paint job, did you?) Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........ No, they would throw away the 'Chinese valves' and fit, er, 'Golden Dragons'.....!!! :-) Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who controls worker wages and conditions. Gawd.... China is the FASTEST GROWING ECONOMY in the entire bloody world!! (Learn to like Chow Mein Patrick.... ;-) rest snipped - the sums didn't add up... |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Keith G" wrote
UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of inferior quality. ??? What makes you think they are inferior? I'm prepared to concede that Pat will/may have seen a lot more dodgy Chinese amps than we have in the UK, but I believe you live in the UK - what *bad* Chinese amps have you seen? It's this 'it's Chinese so it's inferior' bigotry that gets me - I have spent money to *find out* for myself, I suspect a lot of the 'knockers' have never even heard a Chinese amplifier.... I didn't say Chinese amps are bad. I just said my amps are better than inferior Chinese ones. Being tautological, or close, I reckoned this assertion would be unassailable. Neither do I believe that Chinese imports are generally inferior or have a bad reputation. Certainly amongst the clueless there is confusion, not to mention xenophobia. There is often also a failure to know where China is, and distinguish it from Taiwan or South Korea. Perhaps also there are some impressions carried over from early experience with goods from Hong Kong. But now the British audio press is full of praise for some Chinese equipment. Shanling springs to mind. There seems a growing consensus that goods are suspect if at least the casework is *not* made in China, on the ground that it must be poor value for money. "Designed in UK, made in China" is an emerging paradigm, but this is just more silly and pathetic Western snobbery. I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment, but I confidently expect that they produce a range that is fit for market. They sensibly and profitably produce whatever sells, including cheaper items, inferior in absolute quality to others at the top of the range, where they are innovative for the purpose of market leadership. As a result of this, and their prodigious growth, they are likely to become leaders in technology, markets, and eventually brands. Like Japan but big enough to be not like Japan at all in the end...this is on a scale we haven't seen before, and from a culture more radically different from ours than that of modern Japan. One thing that impresses me about Chinese audio equipment is their almost immediate willingness to stamp their own identity on their products. It took Japan many years of world domination before they produced a motorcycle with Japanese eyes. They have a poor historical reputation for making unreliable and highly microphonic valves, but you can hardly condemn them for that. Very few valves are made at all in Western Europe or the US. Making superlative transformers is not hard. Their only reason for not often doing so is the same as it is he too few people care enough to spend money on them. They are at some disadvantage in exporting to Europe because of shipping costs. It could well be that relative bargains can be had if you can buy locally. But anyone who does so should assess the quality, and then consider the price, rather than vice-versa. The Chinese aren't daft, so they know what their quality is worth. http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel for a start. Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets). Neither would it be worth my while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the price would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something close to perfection, but not with 300B. Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup lacks credibility with me, BTW. cheers, Ian |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
Patrick Turner wrote:
Keith G wrote: -snip- OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid, or about usd $700. I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great quality. Nice paint on the outside though. Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........ Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who controls worker wages and conditions. And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour, there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for 1 man. But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved. The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss? I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a *significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you give are meaningful if relative wages are high. I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!), I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-) Rob |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
Patrick Turner wrote
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. About 550 at least. http://www.sowter.co.uk/ same price/quality as anywhere else in Western Europe or North America. For small quantities I have not heard of better value Chinese sources. They would probably need to import the steel, if not the laminations, because they are unlikely to have access to the best steel technology in China. Winding transformers may be monkey work, but making state-of-the-art steel laminations isn't. cheers, Ian. |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Ian Iveson" wrote I didn't say Chinese amps are bad. I just said my amps are better than inferior Chinese ones. Being tautological, or close, I reckoned this assertion would be unassailable. It is - your amps would even be better than *Martian* inferor ones..?? The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced Chinese amps?' surely...?? Neither do I believe that Chinese imports are generally inferior or have a bad reputation. Certainly amongst the clueless there is confusion, not to mention xenophobia. There is often also a failure to know where China is, and distinguish it from Taiwan or South Korea. Perhaps also there are some impressions carried over from early experience with goods from Hong Kong. Can't speak for anyone else but I'm fully aware where China is. (Also the words 'Made In China' provide a reasonable clue... ;-) But now the British audio press is full of praise for some Chinese equipment. I don't go by what the 'audio press' is or isn't saying - in anything, other than 'technical stuff' and even then I'd check here before I took it onboard... Shanling springs to mind. There seems a growing consensus that goods are suspect if at least the casework is *not* made in China, on the ground that it must be poor value for money. "Designed in UK, made in China" is an emerging paradigm, but this is just more silly and pathetic Western snobbery. Agreed. I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment, Aha!! Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that? Give me credit for making the effort/ spending the money to find out for myself then. (As I *always* do wherever possible...) snip interesting dissertation http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel for a start OK, an extra tenner for a bit of better steel then? :-) .. Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets). Sounds like a case of 'over crumpetting' to me..?? Out of interest, our new toaster's ****e (toasts one side more than the other) and it says 'Kenwood, England' underneath it! (I suspect it's Chinese manufacture and being marketted by one of those firms who are a bit up themselves about where they get their gear made!) Anyway, we're not too bothered - it was only **CHEEP**!! :-) Heh heh! :-) Neither would it be worth my while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the price would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something close to perfection, but not with 300B. :-) So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people with only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a Ford'll get the job done!! ;-) Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup lacks credibility with me, BTW. Who cares? I like a backup for *everything* electro-mechanical (within reason, we don't need no 2 washing maches in the house) - it's born from my own personal experience and has paid off more times than I care to recall.... Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps other that I think they are good (means nothing) and I consider them to be loopy VFM. The amp you can afford sounds a lot better than any number that you can't afford, in your own home, in my book. My point with these amps is that they open the door for a lot of people to get 'into valves' who might otherwise be put off by high prices. FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3 SET down as my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them all.... Now *if* you live in Cambridge (do you? - it's a suspicion I've got) you are welcome to come here (St Neots - 20 mins away) and hear the Chinese cheepies for yourself. What you made of them would be entirely up to you....?? (I only bought some - I ain't got shares in them or anything... ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Rob" wrote I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!), I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-) Rob, please do! We need more factual information and a lot less 'probably' and 'I suspect' on these issues.... I would like to know if the Chinese are generally 'happy' - the torrent of cheap Chinese stuff is handy to have and very liberating for us poor Westerners, but I would hate to think schoolkids are still going blind 'handweaving carpets', as it were...!! There won't be any neo-capitalist 'Utopia', that's for sure, but I would like to know things are not as dire as some would have us believe - for audio kit assemblers, if at all possible?? |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block forhigh-endtube amps
Rob wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: Keith G wrote: -snip- OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid, or about usd $700. I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great quality. Nice paint on the outside though. Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........ Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who controls worker wages and conditions. And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour, there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for 1 man. But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved. The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss? I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a *significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you give are meaningful if relative wages are high. I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!), I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-) I have not been impressed with OPT quality that I have seen from anywhere in asia, unless its something from Japan, which has been seriously making tube hi-fi gear for a much longer time than elsewhere. But I have seen two Lux amps from japan with wrecked OPTs from tubes failing, so while jap OPTs may be good, they fail because of fragility, so not all was ever well with japanese know how and japanese ability to provide over current protection in their amps. But the price of japaense OPTs is quite high, so it is better for me to wind my own for my own projects unless a client specifies exactly what jap OPT he wants, or purchases the trannies and asks me to build an amp around the OPTs. Nobody I know would ever specify that i should use chinese, korean or taiwanese OPTs, and i don't know of any reputable outlet of competitively priced OPTs from the above 3 places. This could be set to change when ppl there wake up about the necesssity for * Having the correct attitude to quality, and respect and full understanding to RDH4 concerns re OPT design, * low winding losses less than 5%, * ability to withstand a primary current input which is 10 times the idle current for 5 minutes without melting insulation or causing shorted turns, thus making sure over current active protection can work before damage occurs to the transformer. * vacuum impregnation and proper varnishing, so transformers do not "howl" with audio signals due to winding movements. * use of only topgrade GOSS cores, * use of grade 2 polyester-imide coated high temperature insulation winding wire. ( polyurethane coated wire is not permitted ) * use of enough GOSS and P windings to ensure saturation occurs below 20Hz at full power. * use of correctly dimensioned polyester or teflon insulation, * use of winding techniques that allow HV use, * neat layer would coils for each of many interleaved windings, ensuring 70kHz of bandwidth with triode connected tubes and without loop NFB, and ensuring low shunt capacitance. * neat carefully labelled and rugged termination boards, * winding layouts that have no primary tappings for impedance matchings, only taps for UL or CFB usage. * winding layouts with matchings for at least 2 speaker Z, preferably 3 and 6 ohms for most modern speakers which have a large % of the Z at 1/2 the nominal Z. * secondary configurations must be arranged so there is equal current density in each coil, no wasted or unused coils result when changing Z matching, and so HF cut off does not change. So having one single secondary with taps along it for Z matching is not permissible. * able to be used with 20dB of NFB and still remain stable with a 0.22uF capaciatnce load at low level when tube gain is at a max, and have no more than 3 dB peaking in the output response at between 25kHz and 50 kHz when 2uF is the sole load when 16dB of NFB is used in the 43% UL connection. * potted using a method which allows removal of the OPT from the pot easily, so the tranny could later be rewound if necessary. But I see no eveidence that most of the above concerns are being taken seriously in china or anywhere except perhaps japan. The use of potting isn't necessary for DIYers who may prefer to build a box over all transformers, but some diyers don't, and don't mind naked HV terminals which are deadly. I don't like flying leads and bell ends. My 300 watt OPTs have about 10 connections to the P and 24 to the S, so flying leads are impractical. Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes. Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price, I wind my own. I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are. Patrick Turner. Rob |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
Ian Iveson wrote: Patrick Turner wrote I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. About 550 at least. http://www.sowter.co.uk/ same price/quality as anywhere else in Western Europe or North America. For small quantities I have not heard of better value Chinese sources. They would probably need to import the steel, if not the laminations, because they are unlikely to have access to the best steel technology in China. Winding transformers may be monkey work, but making state-of-the-art steel laminations isn't. cheers, Ian. The price I have to pay for top quality GOSS E&I lams has risen from $8 per Kg to $12 over the last 12 mths, Why? Because the chinese are buying up huge qualtities of GOSS sheet to satisfy demand for goods made in china for export. I have reason to believe many chinese OPTs do have GOSS material which is good quality. But there is far more to winding a decent OPT than just using good iron. But we never se any exhaustive test reports of chinese crap. So I don't buy audio amp parts made in china. They act arrogantly by not providing us with the full details of the construction of their products. Patrick Turner. |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Keith G" wrote The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced Chinese amps?' surely...?? I would rather the question be whether similarly priced Chinese amps are better than mine. Answer is, not in the UK AFAIK. Certainly not with the service I can provide. But they have no advantage here when it comes to custom manufacture for individual requirements. I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment, Aha!! Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that? It is not very significant. I have just one pair of ears that I like to use to listen to music, rather than fault-finding, which currupts the listening experience. OTOH, I contend that a good amp can be identified by the size of its transformers in relation to its power output, assuming the iron is of good quality. Most amps I see, including those in your link, don't impress in that respect. I would want to know whether that 20Hz -1dB is at full power, for instance, and how much distortion there is under those conditions. I'd want to know why the top end is just 30kHz. Listening would not be the easiest or most reliable way of finding out. Give me credit for making the effort/ spending the money to find out for myself then. (As I *always* do wherever possible...) I don't begrudge you credit, but listening won't make a measurably or observably poor amplifier any better. I don't go by what the 'audio press' is or isn't saying - in anything, other than 'technical stuff' and even then I'd check here before I took it onboard... Nobody does, but the magazines still go from the shelves:-) Where is here? I assume you mean URA? Do they have experts? Perhaps I should visit. http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel for a start OK, an extra tenner for a bit of better steel then? :-) And another for the sense to use it? Actually, SS is a bitch to work with whatever its grade. I like laquered verdigris copper, brass, and black hardwood because they age without looking smutty. Jamaicans are always impressed. . Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets). Sounds like a case of 'over crumpetting' to me..?? Perhaps they are too thick? Or too round...they have "toaster friendly" crumpets in the shop, but the only difference is that they are square. Seems to me they would get burned at the corners. Out of interest, our new toaster's ****e (toasts one side more than the other)... IDEAL FOR CRUMPETS!!! As long as the ejector mechanism has a long enough throw to remove them without burning your fingers. The round ones are good because you can put one finger in and roll them up the sides. But who am I to advise on toasters:-( ...and it says 'Kenwood, England' underneath it! (I suspect it's Chinese manufacture and being marketted by one of those firms who are a bit up themselves about where they get their gear made!) Anyway, we're not too bothered - it was only **CHEEP**!! :-) Taiwan, possibly? (they still say they *are* China, but really they have always been an American satellite). Neither would it be worth my while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the price would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something close to perfection, but not with 300B. :-) I would be concerned about either the reliability or value-for-money of the 300B, depending on where and when it was made. Ferrari or Lotus don't impress me. So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people with only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a Ford'll get the job done!! ;-) Between VW and Audi, or Toyota and Lexus, rather than Kia or Daewoo, perhaps. Performance, reliability, and clean style. Art extra. No poshness. For those without the money for a decent amp, I generally suggest SS is a better low-budget option. This is unlikely to change. Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup lacks credibility with me, BTW. Who cares? I like a backup for *everything* electro-mechanical (within reason, we don't need no 2 washing maches in the house) - it's born from my own personal experience and has paid off more times than I care to recall.... I most certainly care bitterly. I am stuck here with no toast because I was not rich enough to buy a backup or the space to stash it in. If I had twice the money, I would spend it on a less treacherous device. Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps other that I think they are good (means nothing) and I consider them to be loopy VFM. The amp you can afford sounds a lot better than any number that you can't afford, in your own home, in my book. My point with these amps is that they open the door for a lot of people to get 'into valves' who might otherwise be put off by high prices. Which buggers up the market for decent stuff. The only advantage of a valve amp is quality as far as I care. Does a 400 UKP SET offer a better listening experience than the best available SS of similar power and price? Personally, I find that difficult to believe. FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3 SET down as my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them all.... I would need to know a lot about the conduct of the visit and the nature of the visitors! Now *if* you live in Cambridge (do you? - it's a suspicion I've got) you are welcome to come here (St Neots - 20 mins away) and hear the Chinese cheepies for yourself. Bradford. Million miles away, a cultural desert somewhere above Sheffield. Thanks all the same. What's the bass like at volume into ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled? What you made of them would be entirely up to you....?? If they are up to Zappa's "Apostrophe", they are good enough for me:-) (I only bought some - I ain't got shares in them or anything... ;-) Sure, of course. Can we have shares in Chinese companies? A more likely investment would be in their distributors. cheers, Ian |
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