Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

"Keith G" wrote in
:


"Cessna172" wrote


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a
valve amp into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.


In response to a question, you responded with "What's the bass like
at volume into ordinary mainstream speakers". What prompts that
question and what bass issues are you decribing?

I am testing a solid state amp against a valve amp into "ordinary
modern speakers". This test will decide if I stick with SS or get
valves.



Just remember you are using a worthy but cheap *entry level* amp,
Ray....

(I wouldn't dare offer it up to one of Pat's 'room heaters'...!! :-)

I so much want the valves to win, but its only scoring points at highish
volume levels, and I mostly get to play music once everyone is in bed! The
Roksan is winning on bass especially.


--
Cessna172

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Ian Iveson wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote

The price I have to pay for top quality GOSS E&I lams has risen
from $8 per Kg to $12 over the last 12 mths,

Why?

Because the chinese are buying up huge qualtities of GOSS sheet
to
satisfy
demand for goods made in china for export.

China can make its own GOSS, Patrick.

But what are the facts about chinese GOSS production?

Please stick to the facts please.

It *is* a fact, silly. China can make its own GOSS. How could you
possibly expect otherwise? Their technology and science is at least
on a par with any other leading industrial state. They don't lack
many raw materials. They are, however, short of *capacity* in many
sectors because of rapid growth.


It wasn't so much the absolute
availability, but the priority given to audio equipment when
there
are so many other rapidly increasing demands of greater strategic
importance. Imports have greater significance to them than price
alone.

They pay the world price for imported materials.

A classic Turner non-sequitur.

Then they add extremely cheap labour, and export the materials
with value added.

The labour is what makes the proct cheap.

Sources? Facts? Kettle, pot, black.

You are applying your whinging, bitter and pathetic impressions of
western business practice to a Communist state. Clot.

So what grade GOSS are they importing? Is it top grade, laser-cut
and treated laminations? Or are they drawing in such a lot of the
basic GOSS stock that the price of all GOSS is going up? Or even,
are they putting up the price of steel in general?

I am not a trade expert, nor are you.


I wouldn't know what kind of "trade expert" you fancy exists.

You have no idea who or what I am. Had I ever written on the
subject, it would in any case be far beyond your knowledge of the
world.

I know what my GOSS supplier here said to me when he charged the
big
price increase
of 50% in 18 mths.

I suggest you search the trade records rather than ask the group
or me
awkward
questions that you are too lazy to answer by your own efforts.

You made an assertion, I questioned it, stupid. I was asking you
because you raised the issue and pretended you knew. Now I know you
don't know really, so I shan't ask you again. If you unquestioningly
believe everything your suppliers say, no wonder you end up poor,
bitter, and twisted.

India, incidentally, has recycled its GOSS so many times there is
a
growing efficiency crisis throughout the power conversion
industry.

really?

Even with out GOSS, and with plain NOSS, efficiency can be high.

I suggest you bring more facts before stating a reason for a
crisis in
India's power systems.


An incidental point, as I said, so not worth much effort. The
intelligence was gleaned from a conference report in the FT. but
there is an echo if it he

http://www.transformercore.com/technical.htm

Your assertion that they could use NOS would be better addressed to
India but you would appear very foolish, most clearly because it is
largely a legacy issue. Obviously they have *already used* secondary
(and tertiary...etc) GOSS.

I would bet that many use poor laminations, and not enough of
them.

But your'e not a very successful punter.

Another classic, squirming non-sequitur.

Try finding out the facts first about chinese OPT core materials.

What would you like to know?


There is more to them than the quality of the steel stock. Fine
surface finish, durable and complete insulation, and flat cut
edges,
are also crucial. Perhaps we might also agree that many trannies
are
just too small, regardless of the quality of iron?

See my other post with a list of concerns I have about asian made
trannies which
give me reason never to buy chinese.

Yet another non-sequitur. You really aren't following this at all,
are you?

Why should I read it anyway? It is a generic list copied from RDH4.
I am talking about real, modern GOSS...perhaps you don't know much
about that?

Japanese OPTs are way ahead, and have been for 50 years.

Sources? Facts? Kettle, pot, black, glasshouse, stones.


But we never se any exhaustive test reports of chinese crap.

So how do you know it is crap?

Because they like to conceal the truth.

Ah, the other species of non-sequitur. Ever thought of going to
college? It could help discipline your thoughts.

Where no guranteed specification for a product is tendered, the
product
can be deemed crook.

Is this amps or components you are talking about? If it is amps,
then the link proferred by Keith *does* include specs. Not in as
much detail as you say you wish for, I'll warrant, but they are not
often entirely absent.

Your own shack-made products lack the "guaranteed specifications"
that I would wish for, but that's not why I know you are a crook.

If you mean components, then they are not trying to sell to you so
why expect guarantees from them? Do you imagine their customers buy
blind?

You don't just an amp by the paintwork.

Holy ****, tell me you're kidding? I have always justed amps by the
paintwork. Why is this wrong?

One needs to know more, and if nothing is known, or NOTHING can be
found
out
about the details of the product preparation, and the product is
cheap,
then its safe to assume its crap technically *UNTIL IT IS PROVEN
OTHERWISE*.

Hey now...stop shouting and try to stay calm. I know it's hard to
contain such a bitter sense of failure, but I can help if you let
me.

So I don't buy audio amp parts made in china.

Wisely at present I think.

I am never 100% sure of my wisdom since i have a healthy respect
for humility; I could be wrong, and maybe somewhere some how there
are
cheap
OPTs available from china which meet all my expectations, and
conform to
the standard of thought and detail
about OPTs as so clearly illustrated at my website.

Very humble of you. I'm touched.

But right now i don't know where decent chinese OPTs can be
purchased.

I sensed this might be the case.

None of the chinese I have spoken to who have enquired to me to se
if i
wanted transfromers were
able to proceed with a sample of what I like after i directed them
to my
website.

No, they are able, but not willing.

I'd be delighted to have some chinese maker sell me samples of
OPTs that
conform to my designs.

Nobody has much desire to sell you *anything*. Why do you think they
should bother putting up with a cantankerous ignorant whinger for
almost zero sales?

You are not worth the effort. Where *do*
you buy from? Australia mostly, I bet. So why single out China
for
criticism?

I don't buy trannies or chokes from anyone, I make them myself.

Obviously, you have no other option.

They act arrogantly by not providing us with the full details
of
the
construction of their products.

It is not necessarily arrogant. They wisely have no interest in
dealing with you.

Their Internet sites have been set up arrogantly to exclude the
details
of what they make.
My existance is quite irrellevant, although perhaps some chinese
may
have copied my
OPT design No1 without regard to me.

As may the man in the moon, but why bother? It's not difficult.

But OPT No1 is far heavier and bigger than most makes would like
to use,

Yawn.

and bean counters will say no to most entrepreneurs in asia
wanting
to make a killing from tube amp sales to the West.
I am a complet nobody in the world of who's who, I am not
Paravicini,
Peter Quorvtrop, Bill Johnson, etc, and not someone widely
recognised by
such magazines as
Stereophile etc, so a maker saying they have a Turner designed OPT
will not bring sales. Hence I have no fear anyone is exploiting
me.

So why babble on about it? From where in your head did this scum
rise?

I can laugh at the whole circus around me.

Er...right, I see. Try closing your eyes and counting to ten.

But every time i measure some other guys amp is don't ever measure
well
as mine.

Well said, and what a surprise.

And few sound as well to me, and i have zero reason to feel
insecure,

So what made you think of insecurity?

I have built enough gear to know I can easily equal the best, and
i
don't care
if anyone doesn't like to agree.

So why are you in such a tis?

I hope my confidence does not make you sick, if it does,
find your own bucket.

Not at all. I don't see you as a person at all, and try not to know
anything about you. To me, you are just screeds ****e.

I expect they lack the kind of small-to-medium
industrial enterprises that could profit from your scale of
sales.
They know that larger concerns won't take printed specs at face
value...they will always want to visit and inspect and get free
dinners.

The chinese are a mixture of cleverness and cunning.

As distinct from...?

If I had a reliable supplier of trannies at the right price, my
amps
could be cheaper
without any loss in quality, and i'd sell more.

Not necessarily so. People don't avoid you for price alone.

The chinese amps will only get cheaper.

Sources? Facts? Kettle, pot, black.

So its pointless trying to compete with them for the cheap budget
models
of amplifiers.

Of course, but the same is true of all suppliers. Why pick on China?

Once you get away from the cheap crap that Kieth is raving about

Keith raving? I see.

its all
gets quite different.
Amps built around the 845 and high power PP amps are then all
quite
expensive,
and there is a market chance for anyone despite cheap chinese
labour.

I have a client wanting a pair of 40 watt SE 845 mono amps right
now,
custom built,
and he couldn't give a **** about chinese amps.

Bully for you. Found another mug.

cheers, Ian

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:15:40 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Cessna172 wrote:

Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in news:hs0vf.71396
:

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve amp
into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.

The same as you hear with good SS amps. However, good tube amps are
*much* harder to find, and necessarily expensive when you do find
them.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:47:15 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:49:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people
with
only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a
Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)

Except of course that a Ford doesn't have the performance or the build
quality of a Mercedes. Unless you buy a Ford GT - which costs more
than a Mercedes.

Missing the point a tad here, I think.....

Not really - you get what you pay for.

If you're a careful shopper............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

Cessna172 wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



Cessna172 wrote:

Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in
news:hs0vf.71396 :

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with
the tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve
amp into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.


In response to a question, you responded with "What's the bass like at
volume into ordinary mainstream speakers". What prompts that question and
what bass issues are you decribing?

Ian replied that way, i didn't. Please consider quoting correctly.

I was the one who said issues are inaudible.





I am testing a solid state amp against a valve amp into "ordinary modern
speakers". This test will decide if I stick with SS or get valves.

I cannot guess what conclusion you may reach, but do try to make sure
that neither amp being tested isn't pushed beyond its limits; tube amps with
NFB will
clip just the same as SS amps if their power ratings for the load are the
same.

I find its a myth that SS amps always give more or better bass.

Patrick Turner.




--
Cessna172

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block forhigh-endtube amps
 

Keith G wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Yes you do, you are on about them (and Chinese wages) all the time....

I need to make some distinctions.

I meant that I am not going to react in any way to chinese practices and
prices.
I will do what business I must without chinese prices affecting what i do.

I would expect no less. If I was an amp builder (for profit) and someone
told me you can get an amp for 400 quid off eBay I'd tell 'em to FO and go
get one!

You'd be a worse saleman than I am if you'd tell anyone to FO under any
circumstances.

I'd always ask them in, get them relaxed, and play some music from some
favourite CDs
they have brought with them.
I hardly have to say anything.



Put it this way, there may be ppl who think I should, for 400 pounds, fit
out their loungerooms with
beautiful monoblock 845 SET amps that are custom built and 4 times the
power of the
chinese amp which can be bought for 400pounds with 2 x 300B SET for
stereo.
They are in for a shock to their psyche.

See above...


But some ppl do expect dirt cheap deals......

I can't keep all the ppl happy all the time....


I see no reason why i should not explain to all about the obvious
pricing background to chinese amplifiers.

Some ppl don't give a hoot about where the milk for their cafe latte'
comes from, as long
as its cheap, or cheaper yet.

Feck me Patrick - 'cheap foreign imports' have been around since Pontius wuz
a pilot....

There's no need to panic - a marketplace exists for all if you can get to
it....

I am quite confident of that.



One thing that do tickle me a bit is that it seems you small, specialist
builders will rant about cheap imports but none of you ever say much about
'kit suppliers' who will put hundred of of big fat volts into *anybody's*
hands??

Hmm, not as many kit suppliers around though now, no Dynakit ST70
is now available....

I had to chuckle when one supplier told me he had a customer once
who twisted all the 'spare wires' of a power tranny together and taped them
up - blew the house fuses (unsurprisingly) and shut his mum's telly off in
the middle of Coronation Street or summat!! :-)

Yes, and others place the wrong size fuse, say 6A for the 120V when they changed
to
240V, and then when bias failure happens, the trannies are fried;
one customer who'd done that near burnt the house down; went to the shop to get
beer while the
amps "warmed up" and came home to a house full of dense smoke.
EAR509 are horrid looking things with flames and smoke pouring out of them.
I rebuilt the amp and another just like is to make a matching pair
but with bias balance indicator leds and active over current protection,
features sadly missing from many cheap tube amps.

Patrick Turner.

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block forhigh-endtubeamps
 

Rob wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Rob wrote:


Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:


-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)


I have not been impressed with OPT quality that I have seen from anywhere in asia,
unless its something from Japan, which has been seriously
making tube hi-fi gear for a much longer time than elsewhere.
But I have seen two Lux amps from japan with wrecked OPTs from tubes
failing, so while jap OPTs may be good, they fail because of fragility,
so not all was ever well with japanese know how and japanese ability to provide over
current
protection in their amps.
But the price of japaense OPTs is quite high, so it is better for me
to wind my own for my own projects unless a client
specifies exactly what jap OPT he wants, or purchases the trannies and asks me to
build
an amp around the OPTs.

Nobody I know would ever specify that i should use chinese, korean or taiwanese
OPTs, and i don't know of any reputable outlet of competitively priced
OPTs from the above 3 places.

This could be set to change when ppl there wake up about the
necesssity for

* Having the correct attitude to quality, and respect and full understanding
to RDH4 concerns re OPT design,
* low winding losses less than 5%,
* ability to withstand a primary current input
which is 10 times the idle current for 5 minutes without melting insulation
or causing shorted turns, thus making sure over current active protection can work
before damage occurs to the transformer.
* vacuum impregnation and proper varnishing, so transformers do not "howl"
with audio signals due to winding movements.
* use of only topgrade GOSS cores,
* use of grade 2 polyester-imide coated high temperature insulation winding wire.
( polyurethane coated wire is not permitted )
* use of enough GOSS and P windings to ensure saturation
occurs below 20Hz at full power.
* use of correctly dimensioned polyester or teflon insulation,
* use of winding techniques that allow HV use,
* neat layer would coils for each of many interleaved windings,
ensuring 70kHz of bandwidth with triode connected tubes and without loop NFB,
and ensuring low shunt capacitance.
* neat carefully labelled and rugged termination boards,
* winding layouts that have no primary tappings
for impedance matchings, only taps for UL or CFB usage.
* winding layouts with matchings for at least 2 speaker Z, preferably
3 and 6 ohms for most modern speakers which have a large % of the Z at
1/2 the nominal Z.
* secondary configurations must be arranged so there is equal current density
in each coil, no wasted or unused coils result when changing Z matching,
and so HF cut off does not change.
So having one single secondary with taps along it for Z matching is not permissible.
* able to be used with 20dB of NFB and still remain stable
with a 0.22uF capaciatnce load at low level when tube gain is at a max,
and have no more than 3 dB peaking in the output response at between
25kHz and 50 kHz when 2uF is the sole load when 16dB of NFB is used in the 43% UL
connection.
* potted using a method which allows removal of the OPT from the pot easily,
so the tranny could later be rewound if necessary.

But I see no eveidence that most of the above concerns are being taken seriously in
china
or anywhere except perhaps japan.

The use of potting isn't necessary for DIYers who may prefer to build
a box over all transformers, but some diyers don't, and don't mind
naked HV terminals which are deadly.
I don't like flying leads and bell ends.
My 300 watt OPTs have about 10 connections to the P and 24 to the S,
so flying leads are impractical.

Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes.

Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price,
I wind my own.

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Patrick Turner.


OK Patrick, so you've said. You do seem to care about two key things:

1. The plight of the Chinese workers. I'm interested in this too - a big
part of the reason for my visit.

Another two generations are needed before the same infrstructures we take for granted can
be built.
Trouble is ppl are limited to one chile per family, and the ramifications of this policy
are unknown.

World problems of unstainability of progress will limit progress.

If the chinese endure condition nobody else will in the west, its probably set to continue

for a long time.


2. Chinese audio transformers/valve gear isn't very good.

That is a broad conclusion from what I have seen.
However, there are exceptions, so keep an open mind.

The safety
points you make are worrying, although I'm not sure what you mean by
'bell ends'; something lost in translation I fear.

Bell ends are stamped metal ends used to cover over protruding windings and termination
on E&I laminated trannies; the standard Hammond range of trannies uses such end covers.
While being safe, such trannies usually have a gaggle of leads coming from the tranny
which have to be terminated by the user.
I prefer the terminal block be fixed to the OPT with all solderable terminals
so that these protrude down into the chassis area through a large square hole,
or the OPT has a removeable box or box with cover with terminations accessable by removing
the box or access plate.
But owners alter things and leave covers removed, and making anything with covers that can
be removed
could lead to being sued from claimed negligence.

Its really a problem when you make a large run of amps.
making 10,000 amps increases the chance of being sued 10,000 times over
the risk when you make just one sample.


Perhaps our 'CE'
marking makes a difference? Just looking at ebay feedback, and reports
on this NG, it certainly seems up to the job ...? In any case, I'm not
qualified to comment on what's under the bonnet so your 'necessaries'
are tricky for me to evaluate.

CE rating is rating for mains interference and RF radiation.

Basic safety varies between countries, and most if not all imports have to pass
safety standards relevant before being allowed into a country.
Most countries require CE certification and compliance as well.

Usually linear power supplies with a mains PT, diodes, caps, with a thermal fuse and well
earthed chassis
and correct thickness insulation on mains entry wiring and IEC plug, fuse holders,
etc will pass all the concerns of the authorities.

It wasn't always so though, and much junk that was unsafe and which interfered with
TV and radios etc was to be found in the shops.

Patrick Turner.



Rob

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

I would expect no less. If I was an amp builder (for profit) and someone
told me you can get an amp for 400 quid off eBay I'd tell 'em to FO and
go
get one!

You'd be a worse saleman than I am if you'd tell anyone to FO under any
circumstances.


:-)

Actually not necessarily, but I won't go into it....


I'd always ask them in, get them relaxed, and play some music from some
favourite CDs
they have brought with them.
I hardly have to say anything.


When people come hear to hear valves I say nothing either. For a start I'm
not 'selling' anything, but I don't think valves are for everyone for a
number of different reasons....

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block forhigh-endtube amps
 

Keith G wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

I would expect no less. If I was an amp builder (for profit) and someone
told me you can get an amp for 400 quid off eBay I'd tell 'em to FO and
go
get one!

You'd be a worse salesman than I am if you'd tell anyone to FO under any
circumstances.

:-)

Actually not necessarily, but I won't go into it....


I'd always ask them in, get them relaxed, and play some music from some
favourite CDs
they have brought with them.
I hardly have to say anything.

When people come hear to hear valves I say nothing either. For a start I'm
not 'selling' anything, but I don't think valves are for everyone for a
number of different reasons....

.......which would be?

In your own words, and in your own time.....

Patrick Turner.

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:


When people come hear to hear valves I say nothing either. For a start
I'm
not 'selling' anything, but I don't think valves are for everyone for a
number of different reasons....

......which would be?

In your own words, and in your own time.....



OK, me old rubber glove, seein' as how you arst so nice like, I'll jump you
in over the top of other replies I still need to make....

Practical reasons:

They are a total dip**** whom I wouldn't trust to be safe with a biro...

They are on a very tight budget (polite for 'skint') and may not be able
afford the 'overhead'....

They can not even change a fuse....

They have very young kids on the loose...

They have very inquisitive dogs (cats are OK... :-)...

They *gotta* have a remote (it's not whether the valve amp has got a remote
or not - it's the *type*!!)....

They live in a tent.

It's raining...

The tent leaks...

They live at the top of a block of flats and the lift's broke...

They are considering ordering a 'greenhouse heater' from you.... :-)


'Sonic' reasons:

They are headbangers that prize ultra-grippy bass and *slam* above all else
and need a *very* loud sound but don't have the budget to buy enough
horses...

Er, nothing else...

That do ya?

:-)