Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

Patrick Turner wrote

The price I have to pay for top quality GOSS E&I lams has risen
from $8 per Kg to $12 over the last 12 mths,

Why?

Because the chinese are buying up huge qualtities of GOSS sheet to
satisfy
demand for goods made in china for export.

China can make its own GOSS, Patrick. It wasn't so much the absolute
availability, but the priority given to audio equipment when there
are so many other rapidly increasing demands of greater strategic
importance. Imports have greater significance to them than price
alone.

So what grade GOSS are they importing? Is it top grade, laser-cut
and treated laminations? Or are they drawing in such a lot of the
basic GOSS stock that the price of all GOSS is going up? Or even,
are they putting up the price of steel in general?

India, incidentally, has recycled its GOSS so many times there is a
growing efficiency crisis throughout the power conversion industry.

I have reason to believe many chinese OPTs do have GOSS material
which
is good
quality.
But there is far more to winding a decent OPT than just using good
iron.


I would bet that many use poor laminations, and not enough of them.
There is more to them than the quality of the steel stock. Fine
surface finish, durable and complete insulation, and flat cut edges,
are also crucial. Perhaps we might also agree that many trannies are
just too small, regardless of the quality of iron?

But we never se any exhaustive test reports of chinese crap.


So how do you know it is crap?

So I don't buy audio amp parts made in china.

Wisely at present I think. You are not worth the effort. Where *do*
you buy from? Australia mostly, I bet. So why single out China for
criticism?

They act arrogantly by not providing us with the full details of
the
construction of their products.

It is not necessarily arrogant. They wisely have no interest in
dealing with you. I expect they lack the kind of small-to-medium
industrial enterprises that could profit from your scale of sales.
They know that larger concerns won't take printed specs at face
value...they will always want to visit and inspect and get free
dinners.

cheers, Ian

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

Ian Iveson wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote

The price I have to pay for top quality GOSS E&I lams has risen
from $8 per Kg to $12 over the last 12 mths,

Why?

Because the chinese are buying up huge qualtities of GOSS sheet to
satisfy
demand for goods made in china for export.

China can make its own GOSS, Patrick.

But what are the facts about chinese GOSS production?

Please stick to the facts please.



It wasn't so much the absolute
availability, but the priority given to audio equipment when there
are so many other rapidly increasing demands of greater strategic
importance. Imports have greater significance to them than price
alone.

They pay the world price for imported materials.

Then they add extremely cheap labour, and export the materials
with value added.

The labour is what makes the proct cheap.





So what grade GOSS are they importing? Is it top grade, laser-cut
and treated laminations? Or are they drawing in such a lot of the
basic GOSS stock that the price of all GOSS is going up? Or even,
are they putting up the price of steel in general?

I am not a trade expert, nor are you.
I know what my GOSS supplier here said to me when he charged the big
price increase
of 50% in 18 mths.

I suggest you search the trade records rather than ask the group or me
awkward
questions that you are too lazy to answer by your own efforts.




India, incidentally, has recycled its GOSS so many times there is a
growing efficiency crisis throughout the power conversion industry.

really?

Even with out GOSS, and with plain NOSS, efficiency can be high.

I suggest you bring more facts before stating a reason for a crisis in
India's power systems.





I have reason to believe many chinese OPTs do have GOSS material
which
is good
quality.
But there is far more to winding a decent OPT than just using good
iron.


I would bet that many use poor laminations, and not enough of them.

But your'e not a very successful punter.

Try finding out the facts first about chinese OPT core materials.




There is more to them than the quality of the steel stock. Fine
surface finish, durable and complete insulation, and flat cut edges,
are also crucial. Perhaps we might also agree that many trannies are
just too small, regardless of the quality of iron?

See my other post with a list of concerns I have about asian made
trannies which
give me reason never to buy chinese.
Japanese OPTs are way ahead, and have been for 50 years.



But we never se any exhaustive test reports of chinese crap.

So how do you know it is crap?

Because they like to conceal the truth.

Where no guranteed specification for a product is tendered, the product
can be deemed crook.

You don't just an amp by the paintwork.

One needs to know more, and if nothing is known, or NOTHING can be found
out
about the details of the product preparation, and the product is cheap,
then its safe to assume its crap technically *UNTIL IT IS PROVEN
OTHERWISE*.





So I don't buy audio amp parts made in china.

Wisely at present I think.

I am never 100% sure of my wisdom since i have a healthy respect
for humility; I could be wrong, and maybe somewhere some how there are
cheap
OPTs available from china which meet all my expectations, and conform to
the standard of thought and detail
about OPTs as so clearly illustrated at my website.

But right now i don't know where decent chinese OPTs can be purchased.

None of the chinese I have spoken to who have enquired to me to se if i
wanted transfromers were
able to proceed with a sample of what I like after i directed them to my
website.

I'd be delighted to have some chinese maker sell me samples of OPTs that
conform to my designs.



You are not worth the effort. Where *do*
you buy from? Australia mostly, I bet. So why single out China for
criticism?

I don't buy trannies or chokes from anyone, I make them myself.





They act arrogantly by not providing us with the full details of
the
construction of their products.

It is not necessarily arrogant. They wisely have no interest in
dealing with you.

Their Internet sites have been set up arrogantly to exclude the details
of what they make.
My existance is quite irrellevant, although perhaps some chinese may
have copied my
OPT design No1 without regard to me.

But OPT No1 is far heavier and bigger than most makes would like to use,

and bean counters will say no to most entrepreneurs in asia wanting
to make a killing from tube amp sales to the West.
I am a complet nobody in the world of who's who, I am not Paravicini,
Peter Quorvtrop, Bill Johnson, etc, and not someone widely recognised by
such magazines as
Stereophile etc, so a maker saying they have a Turner designed OPT
will not bring sales. Hence I have no fear anyone is exploiting me.

I can laugh at the whole circus around me.
But every time i measure some other guys amp is don't ever measure well
as mine.
And few sound as well to me, and i have zero reason to feel insecure,
I have built enough gear to know I can easily equal the best, and i
don't care
if anyone doesn't like to agree.

I hope my confidence does not make you sick, if it does,
find your own bucket.





I expect they lack the kind of small-to-medium
industrial enterprises that could profit from your scale of sales.
They know that larger concerns won't take printed specs at face
value...they will always want to visit and inspect and get free
dinners.

The chinese are a mixture of cleverness and cunning.

If I had a reliable supplier of trannies at the right price, my amps
could be cheaper
without any loss in quality, and i'd sell more.

The chinese amps will only get cheaper.

So its pointless trying to compete with them for the cheap budget models
of amplifiers.

Once you get away from the cheap crap that Kieth is raving about its all
gets quite different.
Amps built around the 845 and high power PP amps are then all quite
expensive,
and there is a market chance for anyone despite cheap chinese labour.

I have a client wanting a pair of 40 watt SE 845 mono amps right now,
custom built,
and he couldn't give a **** about chinese amps.

Patrick Turner









cheers, Ian

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:49:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people with
only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a
Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)

Except of course that a Ford doesn't have the performance or the build
quality of a Mercedes. Unless you buy a Ford GT - which costs more
than a Mercedes.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

"Patrick Turner" wrote



Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes.


And keep his secrets......



Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price,
I wind my own.

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.


Yes you do, you are on about them (and Chinese wages) all the time....

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:49:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people
with
only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a
Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)

Except of course that a Ford doesn't have the performance or the build
quality of a Mercedes. Unless you buy a Ford GT - which costs more
than a Mercedes.



Missing the point a tad here, I think.....

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

"Ian Iveson" wrote in news:hs0vf.71396
:

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)

--
Cessna172

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in news:hs0vf.71396
:

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve amp
into ordinary modern speakers?

--
Cessna172

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-endtube amps
 

Ian Iveson wrote:


Now *if* you live in Cambridge (do you? - it's a suspicion I've
got) you are welcome to come here (St Neots - 20 mins away) and
hear the Chinese cheepies for yourself.


Bradford. Million miles away, a cultural desert somewhere above
Sheffield. Thanks all the same. What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Ahh (wakes up), someone local building valve kit, what do you build
then?, who do you get TX's from?

--
Nick

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
. uk...

"Keith G" wrote

The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced Chinese
amps?' surely...??

I would rather the question be whether similarly priced Chinese amps are
better than mine. Answer is, not in the UK AFAIK.



You don't know because you haven't heard one. I don't know because I haven't
heard one of yours.


Certainly not
with the service I can provide.


Backup?? ;-)



But they have no advantage here when
it comes to custom manufacture for individual requirements.


Huh? Who's talking about 'bespoke' - you buy these off the shelf....



I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment,

Aha!!

Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that?

It is not very significant. I have just one pair of ears that I like to
use to listen to music, rather than fault-finding, which currupts the
listening experience.


Oh yes. If one or two people here (ukra) relied on their ears or even bought
a pair of speakers and actually *listened* to a bit of kit instead of
quoting specs (they can't measure them - they never seen or heard them most
of the time) we'd hear a lot less about 'accuracy' and 'distortion' than we
do....


OTOH, I contend that a good amp can be identified by the size of its
transformers in relation to its power output, assuming the iron is of good
quality.


One thing I think needs to be mentioned on my webpage (I only just found out
when I checked just now) is that the '18 kg' quoted for the JA Audio amp on
the eBay auction (cut and pasted to my webpage) looks *very* like 13 kg on
the bathroom scales I've recently borrowed (to weigh a parcel). I will check
it with a spring balance setup later, but if it is only 13 kg that's a very
naughty bit of BS!! - A lot of people use 'trannie iron' and weight/size
ratio as something to go on! (Meaningless in the long run I suppose.....)

Otherwise, I still say the little bugger is so surprisingly heavy it feels
stuck down when you come to lift it up!


Most amps I see, including those in your link,
don't impress in that respect. I would want to know whether that 20Hz -1dB
is at full power, for instance, and how much distortion there is under
those conditions. I'd want to know why the top end is just 30kHz.
Listening would not be the easiest or most reliable way of finding out.


You really aren't getting the point are you?- Tese amps cost NOWT!! If they
only switched on and warmed up it would be reasonable enough comparedwith
Western prices. The fact that sound comes out of them is a bonus (via the
speakers, for the pedants), but the biggest bonus of all is that sound
*fine* - they exibit all the qualities I look for in 'SE triodes'!!

Now, the interesting bit, they haven't put me off wanting a *top quality*
300B SET - they made me want it even more! Which is why I say they are a
Good THing - they are getting more people through the door and, as I have
said many times now, if these people are 'similarly hooked' they *could*
become future customers of yours!!

FFS wake up to that point - you and Pat banging on about how bad these amps
are when you have *never* heard them is a little ridiculous (to say the
least) and is dripping with sour grapes!! You do yourself no favours - try
this for a change: "I'm sure they are excellent VFM and will give you a good
introduction, when you are ready I will build you summat blinding!"

No?



interrupts typing to take delivery of 4 pcs NOS Mullard CV4024!! :-)))

(Never fails to get me a bit excited, getting valves - stoopid innit?? :-)



Nobody does, but the magazines still go from the shelves:-)


Sure, I like the pix and the ads, they are handy for an idea of prices.....


And another for the sense to use it? Actually, SS is a bitch to work with
whatever its grade.


Sure. Makes getting *any* stainlesss a bonus dunnit??


I like laquered verdigris copper, brass,
and black hardwood because they age without looking smutty. Jamaicans are
always impressed.


Takes a lot to impress Jamaicans! ;-)


Sounds like a case of 'over crumpetting' to me..??

Perhaps they are too thick? Or too round...they have "toaster friendly"
crumpets in the shop, but the only difference is that they are square.
Seems to me they would get burned at the corners.


Yep, burnt edges - see below...


Out of interest, our new toaster's ****e (toasts one side more than the
other)...

IDEAL FOR CRUMPETS!!! As long as the ejector mechanism has a long enough
throw to remove them without burning your fingers. The round ones are good
because you can put one finger in and roll them up the sides. But who am I
to advise on toasters:-(


If you put two slices of 'bird bread' (cheap white sliced) in one side, the
toaster flips them out onto the worktop! :-)


Here's a shot of my breakfast to give you an idea:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Toast.JPG

Note the 'fullrange' approach - from *untouched* to *charred* on the one
side!

(Takes real knowhow to make a toaster that clever!! ;-)


Neither would it be worth my
while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the price
would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something close to
perfection, but not with 300B.


:-)

I would be concerned about either the reliability or value-for-money of
the 300B,


These amps are no less 'fixable' than most and at the price they are almost
'disposable'!!


depending on where and when it was made. Ferrari or
Lotus don't impress me.


How did that creeep in?



So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people
with only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody
twigs a Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)


OK, I see now - it was me....!! ;-)


Between VW and Audi, or Toyota and Lexus, rather than Kia or Daewoo,
perhaps. Performance, reliability, and clean style. Art extra. No
poshness. For those without the money for a decent amp, I generally
suggest SS is a better low-budget option. This is unlikely to change.


Incredible - that's gonna *herd* people into your shop innit?

Asitappens, I advise people to think long and hard about valves - I say they
are not for everybody.



Who cares? I like a backup for *everything* electro-mechanical (within
reason, we don't need no 2 washing maches in the house) - it's born from
my own personal experience and has paid off more times than I care to
recall....

I most certainly care bitterly. I am stuck here with no toast because I
was not rich enough to buy a backup or the space to stash it in. If I had
twice the money, I would spend it on a less treacherous device.


The best toast comes from under the grill, but it's a dangerous occupation -
them grills don't switch themselves off!!



Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps other that
I think they are good (means nothing) and I consider them to be loopy
VFM. The amp you can afford sounds a lot better than any number that you
can't afford, in your own home, in my book. My point with these amps is
that they open the door for a lot of people to get 'into valves' who
might otherwise be put off by high prices.

Which buggers up the market for decent stuff. The only advantage of a
valve amp is quality as far as I care.


Why should it? I say they are good enough to get people hooked. Then come
your turn if you want it. People chasing 4 figures of money into 'names'
like Roksan/Cyrus/Arcam etc. aren't ever going to be any use to you.


Does a 400 UKP SET offer a
better listening experience than the best available SS of similar power
and price? Personally, I find that difficult to believe.


OK, trust me then - the answer is YES!! Both the Chinese 300B SETs have what
I call 'good triode qualities' - my yardstick/benchmark is the 2A3 Loftin
White SET (that *I* built) which sound excellent to me but, more
importantly, appears to sound excellent to many/most 'audio vistors' here!!


FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3 SET down
as my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them all....


There you are - I jusr said that!! (I reall must learn to read ahead!! ;-)


I would need to know a lot about the conduct of the visit and the nature
of the visitors!


Their conduct is impeccable and they are all idiots.....

;-)


Bradford. Million miles away, a cultural desert somewhere above Sheffield.
Thanks all the same.


OK. If you ever find yourself coming down the A1 to (or past) Huntingdon
gimme a shout.


What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers?


Interesting question - I've never tried them (the 300Bs) on anything but my
own homebrew speakers. I'll drag the B&W DM2As round to them some time soon.


How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Forget all that **** - they sound superb, the clarity is there, the 'tone'
is there and you/I can listen to them all day long and still regeret having
to switch them off in the wee smalls...



What you made of them would be entirely up to you....??

If they are up to Zappa's "Apostrophe", they are good enough for me:-)


I've got plenty of Zappa (LP and CD) and what I've heard of it on the
Chinese amps is excellent. I think I played a bit for Ray a few nights
ago....???


(I only bought some - I ain't got shares in them or anything... ;-)

Sure, of course. Can we have shares in Chinese companies? A more likely
investment would be in their distributors.


You wanna buy shares in a Far Eastern organisation that's going to take off,
buy into their banking industry if you can....

Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
 

The message
from "Keith G" contains these words:


"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
. uk...

"Keith G" wrote

The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced Chinese
amps?' surely...??

I would rather the question be whether similarly priced Chinese amps are
better than mine. Answer is, not in the UK AFAIK.



You don't know because you haven't heard one. I don't know because I
haven't
heard one of yours.


Certainly not
with the service I can provide.


Backup?? ;-)



But they have no advantage here when
it comes to custom manufacture for individual requirements.


Huh? Who's talking about 'bespoke' - you buy these off the shelf....



I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment,

Aha!!

Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that?

It is not very significant. I have just one pair of ears that I like to
use to listen to music, rather than fault-finding, which currupts the
listening experience.


Oh yes. If one or two people here (ukra) relied on their ears or even
bought
a pair of speakers and actually *listened* to a bit of kit instead of
quoting specs (they can't measure them - they never seen or heard them most
of the time) we'd hear a lot less about 'accuracy' and 'distortion' than we
do....


OTOH, I contend that a good amp can be identified by the size of its
transformers in relation to its power output, assuming the iron is
of good
quality.


One thing I think needs to be mentioned on my webpage (I only just
found out
when I checked just now) is that the '18 kg' quoted for the JA Audio amp on
the eBay auction (cut and pasted to my webpage) looks *very* like 13 kg on
the bathroom scales I've recently borrowed (to weigh a parcel). I will
check
it with a spring balance setup later, but if it is only 13 kg that's a very
naughty bit of BS!! - A lot of people use 'trannie iron' and weight/size
ratio as something to go on! (Meaningless in the long run I suppose.....)

18kg is I imagine the shipping weight.

Really enjoy your informative posts.

A good valve amp into large Magneplanar speakers is a sound from heaven.

Deryck