In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Could you give some proof of this? It's not *my* findings at all. Of
course your straw poll will be no more accurate than mine.

Already done. Both in Helsinki and Stockholm,
for both music students and those interested in audio perception.

Ah. So not actually pursuing or intending to pursue a career in some form
of sound recording etc?

I expect the British are a bit behind, but not much:-)

My 'poll' tends to be students from both Ravensborne and Surrey University
who intend a career in broadcasting. Of course it could be that these
institutions place a greater emphasis on engineering than in other
countries and teach their pupils some sense. ;-)

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You must have a very powerful crystal ball if you know what I have and
haven't done.

Do you have access to a cutting lathe, to carry out the experiment to
which you refer?

Anyone has access to a cutting lathe. Unless you somehow think they don't
exist anymore?

Do you have the expertise to cut a disc?

No. But that doesn't stop me getting someone else to do it.

Somehow I think I need no crystal ball to tell me the answer:-)

Oh, you do. You obviously haven't a clue what facilities were available in
a large broadcasting organisation.


What a surprise! The CD had a dynamic range some 6dB
less than the LP. There was clear evidence of Smiley at work
with and excess of both LF and HF, unpleasant compression
and detectable clipping.

Which proves nothing - except that people in the record industry are
capable of ruining a 'good thing'.

I did not set out to "prove" anything, but merely to illustrate
why some people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of
a recording if one is available.

And there is the flaw in your argument. You take the example of a poorly
re-mastered CD and compare it to a better mastered LP and conclude the LP
system is better than the CD one.

Now remind me of what industry you work
in...;-)

Classical and jazz recording. Thankfully, we are not affected by outside
pressures from the public to produce head-banging, sounds-loud-in
the-car-and-in-the-toilet, recordings. I have always attended the
mastering sessions of projects in which I have been involved, and
have always been happy with the end result.

So you're in a tiny niche market so hardly qualified to make
generalizations?

So you're saying all vinyl is perfect and never ruined by bad
mastering, because that's what you're on about - not CD verses vinyl?

No. I did not say that. I am fully conversant with the strengths and
weaknesses of both, and understand the circumstances under which
many people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of their music if one
is available.

I asked before in another post what the strengths of vinyl were, but you
don't appear to have answered.


If so, you weren't around much when vinyl was common - or had never
heard a master tape. Which seems strange given your claims.

Dave. I have been in professional recording since 1965.

A mere boy, then. ;-)

Something about "master tapes and hot dinners" comes to mind:-)

And you've not noticed how vinyl degrades the master tape? I find that
very hard to believe. Apart from some cutting engineers whose jobs were on
the line, pretty well everyone else was glad to see the back of it.

A bit presumptuous, Dave:-) Some might wonder whether a TV
sound recordist should be trying to "educate" someone
like Keith on those subjects.

Err, and you presume to know more? How very pretentious of you.

Not at all. I simply suggested that you defer to the expertise of
the R+D people at Lowther, JBL and Altec, who *really* know
what they are talking about. I make no pretensions in this matter.
It is not my area of expertise, and probably not yours either.

I certainly know that wide band horn loading is never used for serious
monitoring. Nor are full range drive units. Of course in your niche world
of analogue recording and valve amps they may well be, but that's why it's
a niche market.

Broadcast sound involves pretty well all the disciplines. Far more
than simple music recording.

Makes you sound like a bit of a "Jack of All Trades" :-((
I would rather be a specialist, with the greatly enhanced level of
remuneration that the special skills command.

Given you seem to spend most of your time working abroad I'm not sure how
you can make a comparison. But I'm ok financially, thanks very much, and
turn down a deal of work.

Let Lowther, JBL and Altec do the educating if required They have
highly qualified people in R+D who really know the subject. They also
organise excellent demos, lectures and workshops.

But they don't read this newsgroup.

A great many more people read this group than post to it. There is
from my personal experience as much discussion off-list as on.
Have you ever wondered why?

I really don't care. I'd guess that there's so much waffle that has
nothing to do with audio that puts many off. On all the other newsgroups I
read (not necessarily audio related) it would be frowned upon.

That, as I see it, is exactly what Keith is doing. He seems to be
enjoying, and learning from, the experience.It requires a
high level of motivation, and interest, which many people, even the
most capable, seem to lack.

Are you referring to me? FWIW I have lots of home built equipment.

Yes, yes, of course you have:-))

Think I've sent you pictures of some of the gear I've built for
broadcasting related subjects. As well as giving you advice on microphone
choice and placement.

I know from e-mail outside this group that many who read but do not
subscribe, are very interested in his down to earth approach, and
his findings.

These shadowy types again. If they want to read but not contribute let
them buy a mag. It's a very selfish attitude.

It may well be that some of these same people write the
articles in the magazines to which you refer:-)

Good grief. Thank gawd they don't contribute here. Read Jim Lesurf on the
subject. A man who's credentials are impeccable...

A good pal of mine, an ex BBC lecturer, whom
I have known since 1963 (one of your instructors at
Wood Norton?) follows this group with interest.
He does not have the time or the inclination to
become involved in the bar room brawls which so
many Usenet groups become. He said jokingly that
he would "prefer cranial surgery to the invective of
the Scottish Postman and his cronies".

I wonder to whom he was referring? :-)))

I've no idea. Perhaps you should name these mythical characters?

There were, of course, many good lecturers at ETD. But many were just that
- lecturers. And were the first to admit it.

But I'd hope no current lecturer in broadcasting is extoling the vitues
of vinyl over CD. Or digital over analogue. He'd be laughed out of the
business.

--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
The fact that many good people have withdrawn from UKRA has probably
not escaped you, Dave. Happily these people are still to be found on
closed groups, and also keep contact regularly by e-mail direct.

I wonder why these people seem to have no interest in either asking me
to join these 'closed groups' or in emailing me. Am I regarded as 'bar
room brawler'? :-)

As you know from previous discussions, Iain, I am wary of 'closed
groups' as these can easily be used to avoid people having to risk their
ideas being challenged. Perhaps this is the reason I seem to have no
contact with the said groups, etc... ?

You've got it in one, Jim. I'm in several moderated e-mail groups (not
audio related, but mainly motoring) and it's important to many they stay
on topic, and as such the wishes of the majority are paramount. If not
it's an easy matter to start a moderated group with your own rules.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You must have a very powerful crystal ball if you know what I have and
haven't done.

Do you have access to a cutting lathe, to carry out the experiment to
which you refer?

Anyone has access to a cutting lathe. Unless you somehow think they don't
exist anymore?

Indeed they do. I was at a 12inch 45rpm cutting session just before I
started my summer holiday.

Do you have the expertise to cut a disc?

No. But that doesn't stop me getting someone else to do it.

OK. That's clear, and tells me what I wanted to know.
You sound like a would-be brain surgeon, who has never
actually performed an operation:;-)


Somehow I think I need no crystal ball to tell me the answer:-)

Oh, you do. You obviously haven't a clue what facilities were available in
a large broadcasting organization.

Quite the reverse. The former head of BBC Transcription Services was
a close family friend. I visited BH often, when I was resident in the UK.

I also know that Thames had no disc cutting facilities.


I did not set out to "prove" anything, but merely to illustrate
why some people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of
a recording if one is available.

And there is the flaw in your argument. You take the example of a poorly
re-mastered CD and compare it to a better mastered LP and conclude the LP
system is better than the CD one.

There is no flaw. I have never stated that "the LP system" (your words) is
better than CD. Simply that recordings issued on LP are often superior
to the re-issues on CD.

Now remind me of what industry you work
in...;-)

Classical and jazz recording. Thankfully, we are not affected by outside
pressures from the public to produce head-banging, sounds-loud-in
the-car-and-in-the-toilet, recordings. I have always attended the
mastering sessions of projects in which I have been involved, and
have always been happy with the end result.

So you're in a tiny niche market so hardly qualified to make
generalizations?

Classical recording is hardly a niche market, especially when the
projects are funded by cultural foundations throughout the EU:-)

So you're saying all vinyl is perfect and never ruined by bad
mastering, because that's what you're on about - not CD verses vinyl?

No. I did not say that. I am fully conversant with the strengths and
weaknesses of both, and understand the circumstances under which
many people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of their music if one
is available.

I asked before in another post what the strengths of vinyl were, but you
don't appear to have answered.

That post has not yet appeared on my server.

And you've not noticed how vinyl degrades the master tape? I find that
very hard to believe. Apart from some cutting engineers whose jobs were on
the line, pretty well everyone else was glad to see the back of it.

The record companies were eager for new technology as they
could produce a CD for the fraction of the cost of producing a vinly
pressing and sell it for far greater profit. It's a business, pure and
simple. The bean counters are ubiquitous, but fortunately they do not
have the same sway as in broadcasting:-)

I certainly know that wide band horn loading is never used for serious
monitoring. Nor are full range drive units. Of course in your niche world
of analogue recording and valve amps they may well be, but that's why it's
a niche market.

Again you misquote me. 90% of the projects on which I work are
are 24bit digital. However, if a client wants 24 track analogue Dobly SR
on 2 inch then we are happy to oblige. We use neither horns nor full
range units. I have mentioned before the preference for B+W Nautilus
monitors for classical recording. Please get your facts straight, Dave.

Think I've sent you pictures of some of the gear I've built for
broadcasting related subjects.
As well as giving you advice on microphone
choice and placement.

I do not recall any pics of gear you have built. But I do of course
remember the useful advice you were able to give for the selection of
radio mics for the seven saxophone rock'n'roll concert. It was a
great success, and I have thanked you publicly on more than one
occasion for your suggestions.


But I'd hope no current lecturer in broadcasting is extoling the vitues
of vinyl over CD. Or digital over analogue.

Once again, you are performing your party trick of putting words into
others' mouths.

I think this discussion with you has reached an end.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
The fact that many good people have withdrawn from UKRA has probably
not escaped you, Dave. Happily these people are still to be found on
closed groups, and also keep contact regularly by e-mail direct.

I wonder why these people seem to have no interest in either asking me
to join these 'closed groups' or in emailing me. Am I regarded as 'bar
room brawler'? :-)

As you know from previous discussions, Iain, I am wary of 'closed
groups' as these can easily be used to avoid people having to risk their
ideas being challenged. Perhaps this is the reason I seem to have no
contact with the said groups, etc... ?

You've got it in one, Jim. I'm in several moderated e-mail groups (not
audio related, but mainly motoring) and it's important to many they stay
on topic, and as such the wishes of the majority are paramount. If not
it's an easy matter to start a moderated group with your own rules.



Dave. Moderated and a closed groups are two totally different things.
On a moderated group, the admin team have the power to censor
any posts on what is essentially an open group.

In a closed group, the subscribers are there by invitation,
just as one might belong to an association, guild or institute.
There is no moderation or censorship.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
All down to poor - or misconceived - mastering of the later CD release.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the medium itself.

But that is precisely the nucleus of the matter Dave.
No one is saying that vinyl is a superior medium of reproduction

Really? You could have fooled me.

You have been on this NG a lot longer than I. In the 2+ years I
have followed this group I cannot recall anyone stating that vinyl
was technically superior to CD.

What I do recall reading, on this any several other groups is that
people often prefer the sound of a musical performance from vinyl.


but simply that in so many cases the potential of the CD is not
realised, with the result that often people prefer to listen to
a vinyl version of certain recordings.

I have no problem with that. However there are many on here who would
disagree with you and think vinyl as such is simply superior.


I can't speak for anyone except myself. I am certainly not one of those.
However, I am frequently disappointed at the production quality of
popular music CDs.

Regards to all
Iain

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



A good percentage of people don't wish to hide behind an alias, and a
very large percentage don't want to be involved in the bar room brawls
which many Usenet groups have become.

The fact that many good people have withdrawn from UKRA has probably not
escaped you, Dave. Happily these people are still to be found on closed
groups, and also keep contact regularly by e-mail direct.

I wonder why these people seem to have no interest in either asking me to
join these 'closed groups' or in emailing me. Am I regarded as 'bar room
brawler'? :-)

:-) Can't say, Jim. Somehow I can't see you with your pint of heavy
lashing
about and insulting all and sundry:-) As I understand it, webmasters look
in
on certain Usenet groups, and make their approaches from there.


As you know from previous discussions, Iain, I am wary of 'closed groups'
as these can easily be used to avoid people having to risk their ideas
being challenged. Perhaps this is the reason I seem to have no contact
with
the said groups, etc... ?

The standard of behavour is no different from what one would expect at
a seminar or other discussion. There is plenty of challenge and lively
discussion, humour too, but no invective.

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
The fact that many good people have withdrawn from UKRA has probably
not escaped you, Dave. Happily these people are still to be found on
closed groups, and also keep contact regularly by e-mail direct.

I wonder why these people seem to have no interest in either asking me
to join these 'closed groups' or in emailing me. Am I regarded as 'bar
room brawler'? :-)

As you know from previous discussions, Iain, I am wary of 'closed
groups' as these can easily be used to avoid people having to risk their
ideas being challenged. Perhaps this is the reason I seem to have no
contact with the said groups, etc... ?

You've got it in one, Jim. I'm in several moderated e-mail groups (not
audio related, but mainly motoring) and it's important to many they stay
on topic, and as such the wishes of the majority are paramount. If not
it's an easy matter to start a moderated group with your own rules.



Dave. Moderated and a closed groups are two totally different things.
On a moderated group, the admin team have the power to censor
any posts on what is essentially an open group.

In a closed group, the subscribers are there by invitation,
just as one might belong to an association, guild or institute.
There is no moderation or censorship.



Presumably, there's no need for it, but I prefer the rufty-tufty of an open
group like this one - I've never been much of one to go along with the crowd
and I don't much care for censorship or the lip-service that seems to
prevail in groups and forums that are *owned* by somebody or other....

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


I agree than 'many' people like vinyl. However I don't see any signs that
'many' means significantly more than, say, 1 percent of the people of the
UK.



Whenever I see this remark I find myself wondering what the significance of
it might be....??

(Smacks to me of the sort of thinking that would rule out (say) discussion
on the relative merits/demerits of certain polo ponies....??)

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
All down to poor - or misconceived - mastering of the later CD
release.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the medium itself.

But that is precisely the nucleus of the matter Dave.
No one is saying that vinyl is a superior medium of reproduction

Really? You could have fooled me.

You have been on this NG a lot longer than I. In the 2+ years I
have followed this group I cannot recall anyone stating that vinyl
was technically superior to CD.


Correct. Merely that some people said they thought the *resultant sound* was
superior. (It is...)



What I do recall reading, on this any several other groups is that
people often prefer the sound of a musical performance from vinyl.


See above.



but simply that in so many cases the potential of the CD is not
realised, with the result that often people prefer to listen to
a vinyl version of certain recordings.

I have no problem with that. However there are many on here who would
disagree with you and think vinyl as such is simply superior.


I can't speak for anyone except myself. I am certainly not one of those.
However, I am frequently disappointed at the production quality of
popular music CDs.


Aren't we all? But what I want to know is who is the 'many' Plowie's
referring to? I can think of me and I know there's a few *silent voices*
here that say elsewhere they prefer it (but not here for some reason)....???