"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Hello Jim. I don't have the Edgar Winter LP but I have found in
comparing vinyl with CD versions of popular music that the CDs are so
often compressed into clipping.

Have you any recently recorded and released examples of this?

I'd love to buy a recent well regarded recording which establishes this.

Of course a digital recording can't 'clip'. Going above 0dBFS on a system
with no limiter produces the most weird sounds which are nothing like
analogue clipping which in any case varies according to which part of the
analogue chain is being overdriven.

Do you find this effect on CD releases you've been involved in?

No, But go to any record shop and buy a CD of each of the top 20
albums. Take a listen, and then look at the waveform on an analyzser.

Iain

Jim Lesurf wrote:


Most CDs I have seem to have little in the way of level compression.
However there are some startling examples of it. The one in the above
document is the version of 'Purple Haze'. Note not only the shape of the
histogram, but the vertical scale which had to be different to the other
plots to cope with the peak value in the max power bin! The sound level
spends most of its time within a dB or so of 0dBFS for a CD.

The plots are for full-band and for HF and LF content with the divider at
2kHz.

I suppose I should try doing a comparison of the various LP/CD versions I
have of this track to see how they vary...


Interesting you say that Jim, when the question of the same recording on
both formats came up, the one I have that sprung to mind was Electric
Ladyland. I found the CD so entirly unremarkable that I don't know if I
can find my copy now (part of the reason I said nothing, as I was not
sure if I could provide samples).

But if they are compressing the hell out of the thing in the process of
"re-mastering" then that could explain it.

--
Nick

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:


Most CDs I have seem to have little in the way of level compression.
However there are some startling examples of it. The one in the above
document is the version of 'Purple Haze'.

I suppose I should try doing a comparison of the various LP/CD
versions I have of this track to see how they vary...



Interesting you say that Jim, when the question of the same recording on
both formats came up, the one I have that sprung to mind was Electric
Ladyland. I found the CD so entirly unremarkable that I don't know if I
can find my copy now (part of the reason I said nothing, as I was not
sure if I could provide samples).


Which version did you have? IIRC the initial UK CDs had problems.

I will try and find it, it was a recient re-release if I remember. Of
course with Hendrix, I guess recient does date back some time :-)

--
Nick

Nick Gorham wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:


Most CDs I have seem to have little in the way of level compression.
However there are some startling examples of it. The one in the above
document is the version of 'Purple Haze'. Note not only the shape of the
histogram, but the vertical scale which had to be different to the other
plots to cope with the peak value in the max power bin! The sound level
spends most of its time within a dB or so of 0dBFS for a CD.

The plots are for full-band and for HF and LF content with the divider at
2kHz.

I suppose I should try doing a comparison of the various LP/CD versions I
have of this track to see how they vary...


Interesting you say that Jim, when the question of the same recording on
both formats came up, the one I have that sprung to mind was Electric
Ladyland. I found the CD so entirly unremarkable that I don't know if I
can find my copy now (part of the reason I said nothing, as I was not
sure if I could provide samples).


Is that the remastered endorsed by the Hendrix estate version? If so
it's atrocious - compressed and just plain odd.

Rob

Rob wrote:


Interesting you say that Jim, when the question of the same recording
on both formats came up, the one I have that sprung to mind was
Electric Ladyland. I found the CD so entirly unremarkable that I don't
know if I can find my copy now (part of the reason I said nothing, as
I was not sure if I could provide samples).


Is that the remastered endorsed by the Hendrix estate version? If so
it's atrocious - compressed and just plain odd.

Rob

Yes, thats the one.

--
Nick

In article ,
Serge Auckland wrote:
Of course a digital recording can't 'clip'. Going above 0dBFS on a
system with no limiter produces the most weird sounds which are
nothing like analogue clipping which in any case varies according to
which part of the analogue chain is being overdriven.

Do you find this effect on CD releases you've been involved in?


Dave,

Robert Plant's CD "Dreamland" from 2001 is one such CD. Several tracks
hit OdBFS continuously, as indicated by my bitstream analyser, and when
looked at on a 'scope look very much like clipping to me. It has a
pretty unpleasant sound, but LOUD!

It could well be analogue equipment used in mastering that is clipping. As
I said, when you overdrive digital it sounds nothing like analogue
clipping.
Depending on the equipment it tends to give a sort of 'warbly' sound.

Some years ago I was talking to both Orban and Cutting Edge people who
were both telling me that their products were being used to master CDs
as punters wanted to hear them as loud as they heard on the radio. As
you know, composite clipping is extensively used in FM processing to get
an extra dB or two of loudness, at the expense of distortion. The TC
Finalizer is also an extensively used mastering tool. I have no idea
what processor was used (if any) on the Plant CD, but processed to
buggery it certainly is.

Yes. And I think it's disgraceful. Whatever the pros and cons of CD, it
has a dynamic range well in excess of what most would want in their homes,
so there's absolutely no need to peak to maximum. But I suppose it's what
the public is used to and wants.

--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
So you thing an SET valve amp is efficient...;-)

*So you*.....???

Didn't really expect an answer.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:



Robert Plant's CD "Dreamland" from 2001 is one such CD. Several tracks
hit OdBFS continuously, as indicated by my bitstream analyser, and when
looked at on a 'scope look very much like clipping to me. It has a
pretty unpleasant sound, but LOUD!


I became curious about this a while ago and analysed some of the CDs I
have. For anyone who is interested, some of the results are now temporarily
at

http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/temp/clips.pdf

Most CDs I have seem to have little in the way of level compression.
However there are some startling examples of it. The one in the above
document is the version of 'Purple Haze'. Note not only the shape of the
histogram, but the vertical scale which had to be different to the other
plots to cope with the peak value in the max power bin! The sound level
spends most of its time within a dB or so of 0dBFS for a CD.

The plots are for full-band and for HF and LF content with the divider at
2kHz.

I suppose I should try doing a comparison of the various LP/CD versions I
have of this track to see how they vary...

Purple Haze on the 1991 Polydor version of "Are You Experienced" isn't
compressed, and nor is "Electric Ladyland". Just as well I bought my copies
before the remaster *******s got hold of them.

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Of course a digital recording can't 'clip'. Going above 0dBFS on a
system with no limiter produces the most weird sounds which are
nothing like analogue clipping which in any case varies according to
which part of the analogue chain is being overdriven.

Do you find this effect on CD releases you've been involved in?

No, But go to any record shop and buy a CD of each of the top 20
albums. Take a listen, and then look at the waveform on an analyzser.

I'm afraid there's very little in the current charts - or indeed recent
ones - that I want to listen to.

Perhaps since you're a man of influence, you could have a word with your
colleagues in mastering?

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
This is one of the difficulties when people try to debate the 'inherent'
merits of LP/CD. If they make comparions of nominally the same recording
they may simply be commenting on how what was put each time onto the
LP or CD was 'adjusted' by the people involved at the time. We often
have no information on what was done, so can only try to deduce this
from the results.

Exactly what I've been saying since this debate began generations ago. But
it still hasn't sunk into many. Probably the types who think only their
own home equipment makes a difference to the sound of a recording, etc.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.