"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
So you're saying all vinyl is perfect and never ruined by bad
mastering, because that's what you're on about - not CD verses
vinyl? If so, you weren't around much when vinyl was common - or
had never heard a master tape. Which seems strange given your
claims.


Gawd, this clown's never-ending, clumsy attempts to put words into
people's mouth never fails to astound me....

I'd suggest you read your pal's article *carefully* then tell me how
I'm putting words in his mouth?



Try the 'So you're saying all vinyl is perfect' above for starters....

So you *didn't* read the article carefully? Or worse, understand it?

He did, and he did.


Actually, I probably didn't - when his stuff starts 'So you.....' I tend to
skip the rest and move on to the next post....



Nowhere in my post did I even suggest that all vinyl is perfect.
I have cut hundreds of lacquers, and know exactly the strengths
and shortcomings.


Yes, I've got thousands of LPs and so do I....

;-)

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Try the 'So you're saying all vinyl is perfect' above for starters....

So you *didn't* read the article carefully? Or worse, understand it?

He did, and he did.
Nowhere in my post did I even suggest that all vinyl is perfect.
I have cut hundreds of lacquers, and know exactly the strengths
and shortcomings.

Ok then. Explain what you meant by your story about that Beatles LP -
apart from the fact the commercial CD release was poorly re-mastered?

--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I have cut hundreds of lacquers, and know exactly the strengths
and shortcomings.

Please describe the strengths.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

To paraphrase, he said an early Beatle LP sounded better than the
commercially released CD (many years later). I've no problem with that.
And that the CD *copy* of that LP sounded identical to it.

All down to poor - or misconceived - mastering of the later CD release.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the medium itself.

But that is precisely the nucleus of the matter Dave.
No one is saying that vinyl is a superior medium of reproduction
but simply that in so many cases the potential of the CD is not
realised, with the result that often people prefer to listen to
a vinyl version of certain recordings.

It's that simple:-)
Regards

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Try the 'So you're saying all vinyl is perfect' above for starters....

So you *didn't* read the article carefully? Or worse, understand it?

He did, and he did.
Nowhere in my post did I even suggest that all vinyl is perfect.
I have cut hundreds of lacquers, and know exactly the strengths
and shortcomings.

Ok then. Explain what you meant by your story about that Beatles LP -
apart from the fact the commercial CD release was poorly re-mastered?

--
Dave. Read again what I wrote. It is self explanatory.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Now, if the students whom you questioned where music, record
industry, or broadcast students, you might well find that 70% of
them also owned a turntable:-)

Could you give some proof of this? It's not *my* findings at all. Of
course your straw poll will be no more accurate than mine.

Already done. Both in Helsinki and Stockholm,
for both music students and those interested in audio perception.
I expect the British are a bit behind, but not much:-)

Regards to all
Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Well, I continue, each year, to ask my undergrad classes about the
audio systems they have, etc. During the last few years *none* of them
said they have any LPs/Vinyl or any means of replaying them. The
general reaction is puzzlement why anyone would. Occasionally one says
something like, "You mean like DJs/Grandad use?", though.
[snip]

Hello Jim. The people who are interested in vinyl are represented in all
segments of the of the audio market. Many are musicians, who are
interested in a performance by a particular orchestra under a particular
conductor.

Unless they are music students, the undergraduates to which you refer,
probably don't know a clarinet from a crowbar and so cannot be expected
to know anything about any medium other than the one thrust upon them by
mass marketing..

Well, there are two problems with the above...

Firstly, since my interest is in music (this is the main driver for my
interest in audio, for reasons which should be clear) I also tend to
discuss music with them. Although none in recent years have said they have
any Vinyl, a number of them *do* say they are musicians. Some play electric
guitar, others are instrumentalists like violinists or clarinettists, some
sing in various types of vocal groups.

In recent years, I've not had a class of more than 20 students which did
not contain at least a couple of people who identified themselves as
playing an instrument or singing. Variety of types of music from rock to
jazz to madrigals.

I can't say what statistical significance this has. But it seems to be that
being an active musician is rather more popular than having any interest in
vinyl. Similarly, in recent years the only ones who say they have a valve
amplifier have been some of the electric guitarists, who when asked said
they didn't have a valve amp in their audio system, and seemed puzzled by
the idea.

In fact, thinking about it my old research group (about a dozen people at
present) includes one bass gutarist, one trumpet player, and someone who
sings a great deal in a choir. They are all quite knowledgeable about music
of various kinds, and enthusiastic musicians.

Secondly, I am rather doubtful of your assertion that if my students are
not "music students" they would only be guided by 'mass media'. I am afraid
that my impression of them isn't the same as your assumptions about them. I
can understand this, though, as you have not met them. Also, you may not
have spent much time with physicists or mathematicians. If you had you
would realise that quite a number of them have a keen interest in music,
and play an instrument, etc. Yet amongst those I know, an active interest
in vinyl is rare.

[snip]

I don't know if you have a proper high end audio shop where you live,
not one selling Home Theatre and Hotpoint washing machines, but a proper
high end audio shop.

We do not.

If you have, ask what products receive the most number of enquiries. I
have done this in several shops, in four different Scandinavian
countries. The answer is consistent - turntables.

You may well be correct. Partly, I assume because although other shops sell
amplifiers, tuners, etc, the number of shops selling turntables will be a
select few. This means that your comment is based upon a selection effect.
Thus it agrees with what I have previously said: that there is a minority
of a minority who are keen on vinyl. Hardly surprising if they go to the
special shops that cater for their special interest. If I want to buy a
2SA1216 I don't go into Woollworths and ask if they stock them. :-)

Go to any CD/Vinyl fair, and you will clearly see where the interest
lies, among those seriously interested in music.

Indeed. Selection effect again.

As far as CD reissues are concerned, many are so poor, that, despite the
potential superiority of the CD, vinyl still remains the source of
choice in many instances for a great many serious listeners.

That may be so. However, again my experience is different. e.g. I just
bought the discount-priced box sets of the Schubert and Mozart Piano
Sonatas played by Mitsuko Uchida. They sound quite superb to me. 13 CDs of
cracking quality for less than 50 quid.

I agree than 'many' people like vinyl. However I don't see any signs that
'many' means significantly more than, say, 1 percent of the people of the
UK. Indeed, I suspect it is less than this if you exclude the
legacy/grandad market, but I have no figures. If you have some, I'd be
interested to see them.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



A good percentage of people don't wish to hide behind an alias, and a
very large percentage don't want to be involved in the bar room brawls
which many Usenet groups have become.

The fact that many good people have withdrawn from UKRA has probably not
escaped you, Dave. Happily these people are still to be found on closed
groups, and also keep contact regularly by e-mail direct.

I wonder why these people seem to have no interest in either asking me to
join these 'closed groups' or in emailing me. Am I regarded as 'bar room
brawler'? :-)

As you know from previous discussions, Iain, I am wary of 'closed groups'
as these can easily be used to avoid people having to risk their ideas
being challenged. Perhaps this is the reason I seem to have no contact with
the said groups, etc... ?

Or is it the Groucho Marx Syndrome?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
All down to poor - or misconceived - mastering of the later CD release.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the medium itself.

But that is precisely the nucleus of the matter Dave.
No one is saying that vinyl is a superior medium of reproduction

Really? You could have fooled me.

but simply that in so many cases the potential of the CD is not
realised, with the result that often people prefer to listen to
a vinyl version of certain recordings.

I have no problem with that. However there are many on here who would
disagree with you and think vinyl as such is simply superior.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,


You must have a very powerful crystal ball if you know what I have and
haven't done.

Do you have access to a cutting lathe, to carry out the experiment to
which you refer? Do you have the expertise to cut a disc? Somehow
I think I need no crystal ball to tell me the answer:-)


What a surprise! The CD had a dynamic range some 6dB
less than the LP. There was clear evidence of Smiley at work
with and excess of both LF and HF, unpleasant compression
and detectable clipping.

Which proves nothing - except that people in the record industry are
capable of ruining a 'good thing'.

I did not set out to "prove" anything, but merely to illustrate
why some people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of
a recording if one is available.

Now remind me of what industry you work
in...;-)

Classical and jazz recording. Thankfully, we are not affected by outside
pressures from the public to produce head-banging, sounds-loud-in
the-car-and-in-the-toilet, recordings. I have always attended the
mastering sessions of projects in which I have been involved, and
have always been happy with the end result.


So you're saying all vinyl is perfect and never ruined by bad mastering,
because that's what you're on about - not CD verses vinyl?

No. I did not say that. I am fully conversant with the strengths and
weaknesses of both, and understand the circumstances under which
many people prefer to listen to a vinyl version of their music if one
is available.


If so, you
weren't around much when vinyl was common - or had never heard a master
tape. Which seems strange given your claims.

Dave. I have been in professional recording since 1965.
Something about "master tapes and hot dinners" comes to mind:-)

A bit presumptuous, Dave:-) Some might wonder whether a TV
sound recordist should be trying to "educate" someone
like Keith on those subjects.

Err, and you presume to know more? How very pretentious of you.

Not at all. I simply suggested that you defer to the expertise of
the R+D people at Lowther, JBL and Altec, who *really* know
what they are talking about. I make no pretensions in this matter.
It is not my area of expertise, and probably not yours either.


Broadcast
sound involves pretty well all the disciplines. Far more than simple music
recording.

Makes you sound like a bit of a "Jack of All Trades" :-((
I would rather be a specialist, with the greatly enhanced level of
remuneration that the special skills command.

Let Lowther, JBL and Altec do the educating if required They have
highly qualified people in R+D who really know the subject. They also
organise excellent demos, lectures and workshops.

But they don't read this newsgroup.

A great many more people read this group than post to it. There is
from my personal experience as much discussion off-list as on.
Have you ever wondered why?

That, as I see it, is exactly what Keith is doing. He seems to be
enjoying, and learning from, the experience.It requires a
high level of motivation, and interest, which many people, even the
most capable, seem to lack.

Are you referring to me? FWIW I have lots of home built equipment.

Yes, yes, of course you have:-))

I know from e-mail outside this group that many who read but do not
subscribe, are very interested in his down to earth approach, and
his findings.

These shadowy types again. If they want to read but not contribute let
them buy a mag. It's a very selfish attitude.

It may well be that some of these same people write the
articles in the magazines to which you refer:-)

A good pal of mine, an ex BBC lecturer, whom
I have known since 1963 (one of your instructors at
Wood Norton?) follows this group with interest.
He does not have the time or the inclination to
become involved in the bar room brawls which so
many Usenet groups become. He said jokingly that
he would "prefer cranial surgery to the invective of
the Scottish Postman and his cronies".

I wonder to whom he was referring? :-)))


Iain