Soundstage and depth of image
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote



**Delusion is the explanation. The idea of building something tends to
convey a feeling that the builder has constructed the finest sounding
product possible. Normal human emotion, but often has no relation to
reality.


I really love this one - simply being able to trot this ******** out conveys
to me that the writer is getting carried away by his own prejudices.

I know of *no* DIYer who isn't dubious/unsure about his own products or who
doesn't elicit opinions from others. I *am* aware that many DIYers spend
endless amounts of time tweaking their creations until they're happy with
them and I suspect some are *never* truly happy with them.....

Do try to keep it real....



Their imaging is just part of their attraction and
probably just a function of their great speed,dynamics and
clarity-traits often attributed to SETs.

**Speed, clarity, dynamics? Attributed to SETs? Not in this universe. SETs
wash out detail and lack clarity. That is what makes them so popular.


So popular? Make your mind up - next you'll be telling us how *few* people
use them....

But what a stupid, ****ing remark that was - I for one doubt you have ever
heard a SET amplifier.**

Clarity and detail is the very reason I use SET amps and I got there by
trying just about everything else....!!



Coupled with hopelessly engineered recordings, a SET amp can mask all the
rubbish inserted by engineers and musicians.


I think you're ready for a career change.....


** If I'm wrong please feel free to cite examples of which make/model with
which valves, as well as times and places and what sources, music and
speakers were used....

Soundstage and depth of image
 

wrote

snip

A mile of ********, from what I could see of it....

Soundstage and depth of image
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote



**Delusion is the explanation. The idea of building something tends to
convey a feeling that the builder has constructed the finest sounding
product possible. Normal human emotion, but often has no relation to
reality.


I really love this one - simply being able to trot this ******** out
conveys to me that the writer is getting carried away by his own
prejudices.

**Nope. I deal in facts, not delusions.


I know of *no* DIYer who isn't dubious/unsure about his own products or
who doesn't elicit opinions from others.

**Well, I'm here to tell you that I meet them all the time. Here's ONE
example which sticks in my mind:

I sold a properly manufactured, Zero Global NFB, full complementary preamp
to a client. The product specc'd out at around 0.05% THD (20Hz - 20kHz) and
similar levels of IMD. Frequency response is 0.5dB from DC to 150kHz. S/N is
in excess of 100dB. IOW: No serious objective flaws. Sonically, it is
enjoyed by many. The client is a technical person, who fancied himself as a
person who could make improvements. He called me and asked me to pop over,
so I could judge his latest 'improvement', in view of selling it to the
manufacturer. I sat down, ready to carefully listen. He had built a much
more sophisticated and very large power supply for his preamp. He had
managed to inject a hum level of what I judged to be around -50dB and, as
near as I could tell, he had completely screwed the soundstage, such that it
was now artificially broad and shallow. Sheesh! Just the hum was annoying,
yet he kept claiming that the thing sound great. Typical.

I've got a million of them.

Another client brought his homemade gear (along with his wife) over to
demonstrate. We sat down and listened. I hear dproblems, but decided not to
embarrass him in front of his wife. Then I played my reference equipment
(not expensive, BTW). His wife exclaimed: "That's it darling. That's the
sound I like."

I *am* aware that many DIYers spend
endless amounts of time tweaking their creations until they're happy with
them and I suspect some are *never* truly happy with them.....

**And in many cases, rightly so. I do not want to suggest that DIYers cannot
get it right. Many can and do. It's just that they have zero objectivity.


Do try to keep it real....

**That's just it. I DO keep it real. I deal in facts, not fantasy.




Their imaging is just part of their attraction and
probably just a function of their great speed,dynamics and
clarity-traits often attributed to SETs.

**Speed, clarity, dynamics? Attributed to SETs? Not in this universe.
SETs wash out detail and lack clarity. That is what makes them so
popular.


So popular?

**Sure. Lots of people (in the enthusiast community) have owned them.

Make your mind up - next you'll be telling us how *few* people
use them....

**Sure.


But what a stupid, ****ing remark that was - I for one doubt you have ever
heard a SET amplifier.**

**Doubt all you wish. I've heard many. In some cases, in the same system.
The reality is that different SET amps sound fundamentally different to each
other. They can't all be right. OTOH, they all could be wrong.


Clarity and detail is the very reason I use SET amps and I got there by
trying just about everything else....!!

**You did not try EVERYTHING else. You just tried some stuff which was
easy/cheap for you to lay your hands on.




Coupled with hopelessly engineered recordings, a SET amp can mask all the
rubbish inserted by engineers and musicians.


I think you're ready for a career change.....

**What? Just because I deal in the truth?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

wrote in message
oups.com...


Trevor,

Keep the spin coming Trevor.Or is it just dogma?

**I deal in facts. I have used power OP amps many times, over many years.
They're cheap, convenient, easy to use and adequate performers. High end
they ain't.


The Gainclone chip amps were evolved by the former Head of Design at
Luxman.This is the man who dared to make tube amps and low negative
feedback SS amps at Luxman during the 1970s when it was very
unfashionable.[The Duo Beta series of SS amps]
His amp and preamp designs are noted for their ability to image
precisely[relatively anyway], which is something very rare in
mainstream equipment from that era.Clearly he discovered similar traits
with chip amps and this motivated him to start 47 Labs.

**The people behind 47 Labs are niave con-men. The site is full of
nonsensical terminology and outright lies.

These things are not perfect,and the component cost might be low-but
they really do put to shame even expensive and well designed SS amps
when it comes to imaging precision and depth.Especially those with high
damping factors and feedback.

**Sure they probably do, since there are quite a few badly designed
amplifiers on the market. There are also a huge number of properly
designed
amps on the market. Many use the same power OP amps that Gainclones use.
Mostly, they're cheap as chips.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


SNIP Hearsay and utter, banal nonsense.

**Here's some gems from those liars at 47 Labs:

a.. World's smallest number of parts - 9 parts per channel ( excluding
attenuators )

a.. World's shortest signal pass length - 32 m/m ( including the length of
parts )

a.. World's shortest NFB loop length - 9 m/m ( including the length of the
resistor )

a.. World's smallest filter/condenser - 1000µF, (50W version - 2200µF)

a.. Rigid and compact aluminum chassis construction to release vibrations
smoothly.

Of course, there's much, much more. Let's not even get into the pricing of
these ridiculous products.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


Trevor,

Keep the spin coming Trevor.Or is it just dogma?

**I deal in facts. I have used power OP amps many times, over many years.
They're cheap, convenient, easy to use and adequate performers. High end
they ain't.


The Gainclone chip amps were evolved by the former Head of Design at
Luxman.This is the man who dared to make tube amps and low negative
feedback SS amps at Luxman during the 1970s when it was very
unfashionable.[The Duo Beta series of SS amps]
His amp and preamp designs are noted for their ability to image
precisely[relatively anyway], which is something very rare in
mainstream equipment from that era.Clearly he discovered similar traits
with chip amps and this motivated him to start 47 Labs.

**The people behind 47 Labs are niave con-men. The site is full of
nonsensical terminology and outright lies.

These things are not perfect,and the component cost might be low-but
they really do put to shame even expensive and well designed SS amps
when it comes to imaging precision and depth.Especially those with high
damping factors and feedback.

**Sure they probably do, since there are quite a few badly designed
amplifiers on the market. There are also a huge number of properly
designed
amps on the market. Many use the same power OP amps that Gainclones use.
Mostly, they're cheap as chips.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


SNIP Hearsay and utter, banal nonsense.

**Here's some gems from those liars at 47 Labs:

a.. World's smallest number of parts - 9 parts per channel ( excluding
attenuators )

a.. World's shortest signal pass length - 32 m/m ( including the length of
parts )

a.. World's shortest NFB loop length - 9 m/m ( including the length of the
resistor )

a.. World's smallest filter/condenser - 1000µF, (50W version - 2200µF)

a.. Rigid and compact aluminum chassis construction to release vibrations
smoothly.

Of course, there's much, much more. Let's not even get into the pricing of
these ridiculous products.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Trevor,
I agree completely with you about the pricing but the hi fi world is
full of products which cost an absurd amount relative to the cost of
their parts or construction.In fact this is almost standard for most
high end products.How about Wilson and Avalon speakers for example?
Similar but more powerful chip amps can be bought as kits for around US
$300 and in this context they are a bargain.

This topic began with a bloke frustrated with not being able to get
decent imaging in his system.
Many people never achieve this in their systems but there is
signifigant anectodal evidence available through forums like this one
that chip amps deliver the goods in this regard.What is most convincing
about this evidence is that many people who make such comments already
have excellent and expensive systems and are not some DIY punter that
has no idea of what good sound is.
I suggested that this bloke might want to try a chip amp as one of
several things to consider in improving imaging on the back of this not
inconsiderable anectdotal experience.It might not help his system or it
might resolve the problem comprehensively.What is the harm in trying it
though?
Why should your opinion and experience count more than others ?
You can justify any position using technical arguements.But are they
the applicable ones?.You might want to take up the cause of Intelligent
Design.-a group of similar mentallity Thought Police.

Soundstage and depth of image
 

wrote in message
ups.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


Trevor,

Keep the spin coming Trevor.Or is it just dogma?

**I deal in facts. I have used power OP amps many times, over many
years.
They're cheap, convenient, easy to use and adequate performers. High end
they ain't.


The Gainclone chip amps were evolved by the former Head of Design at
Luxman.This is the man who dared to make tube amps and low negative
feedback SS amps at Luxman during the 1970s when it was very
unfashionable.[The Duo Beta series of SS amps]
His amp and preamp designs are noted for their ability to image
precisely[relatively anyway], which is something very rare in
mainstream equipment from that era.Clearly he discovered similar
traits
with chip amps and this motivated him to start 47 Labs.

**The people behind 47 Labs are niave con-men. The site is full of
nonsensical terminology and outright lies.

These things are not perfect,and the component cost might be low-but
they really do put to shame even expensive and well designed SS amps
when it comes to imaging precision and depth.Especially those with
high
damping factors and feedback.

**Sure they probably do, since there are quite a few badly designed
amplifiers on the market. There are also a huge number of properly
designed
amps on the market. Many use the same power OP amps that Gainclones use.
Mostly, they're cheap as chips.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


SNIP Hearsay and utter, banal nonsense.

**Here's some gems from those liars at 47 Labs:

a.. World's smallest number of parts - 9 parts per channel ( excluding
attenuators )

a.. World's shortest signal pass length - 32 m/m ( including the length of
parts )

a.. World's shortest NFB loop length - 9 m/m ( including the length of the
resistor )

a.. World's smallest filter/condenser - 1000µF, (50W version - 2200µF)

a.. Rigid and compact aluminum chassis construction to release vibrations
smoothly.

Of course, there's much, much more. Let's not even get into the pricing of
these ridiculous products.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Trevor,
I agree completely with you about the pricing but the hi fi world is
full of products which cost an absurd amount relative to the cost of
their parts or construction.

**Non-sequitur.

In fact this is almost standard for most
high end products.How about Wilson and Avalon speakers for example?

**Non-sequitur.

Similar but more powerful chip amps can be bought as kits for around US
$300 and in this context they are a bargain.

**Huh? In what sense are 47 Labs products "bargains"?


This topic began with a bloke frustrated with not being able to get
decent imaging in his system.

**And your explanation that it was likely to be a room problem was a good
one. I concur. I also noted that he was listening through a valve preamp.
That, IME, can also contribute to an overblown image.

Many people never achieve this in their systems but there is
signifigant anectodal evidence available through forums like this one
that chip amps deliver the goods in this regard.

**Power OP amps can certainly deliver respectable performance, for not much
money. I never denied that. What I do attack is the notion that they are
"simple" or that there is some kind of magic in their use. They are cheap,
convenient and tough. Nothing more. Their sound quality is OK. Nothing more.
It is for those reasons that they are found in cheap bottom of the line hi
fi systems.

What is most convincing
about this evidence is that many people who make such comments already
have excellent and expensive systems and are not some DIY punter that
has no idea of what good sound is.
I suggested that this bloke might want to try a chip amp as one of
several things to consider in improving imaging on the back of this not
inconsiderable anectdotal experience.It might not help his system or it
might resolve the problem comprehensively.What is the harm in trying it
though?

**None at all. It would probably be easier, cheaper and faster to buy a
decent, mass market product first, however. A budget Rotel would do the
trick quite nicely and offer far better performance, into a wider range of
loads than any power OP amp.

Why should your opinion and experience count more than others ?

**Because it is based on actual experience and a great deal of technical
knowledge. I KNOW why power OP amps sound the way they do.


You can justify any position using technical arguements.But are they
the applicable ones?

**Of course. There's no Supernatural. There's just reality.

..You might want to take up the cause of Intelligent
Design.-a group of similar mentallity Thought Police.

**Like I said: There's no Supernatural. Intelligent Design is just
Creationism dressed up. The people behind and those who support 47 Labs
probably buy into such nonsense. I don't.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article . com,
wrote:

Eiron wrote:
e with high damping
factors and feedback.

JT - you really don't understand how a 'Gainclone' amp works. There is
very little design or 'evolving' involved. You just buy a two dollar
chip and copy the circuit from the manufacturer's datasheet. If you
read the datasheet you will see that the amp is a power opamp, and is
used with plenty of global negative feedback.

Eiron, The Gainclones then prove to be an exception to a well held
opinion.

Thus indicating that an opinion being "well held" does not mean it has any
actual value. :-)


Perhaps there is something in their circuit topography then that
is different, or the way in which negative feedback is applied.They have
much shorter signal paths and are very simple.Maybe this makes a big
difference ,and perhaps feedback applied in this context is sonically
less obvious. So this should make them even more fascinating.

Or maybe none of the above. :-)

Maybe SS amp builders can learn something from them rather than dismiss
them because they are not complex enough .

Elron wasn't dismissing them. He was pointing out the inconsistency of your
previous comments.

[snip yet more "well held opinions" :-) ]

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

wrote in message


Maybe SS amp builders can learn something from them rather than
dismiss them because they are not complex enough .

**THEY ARE COMPLEX. Very complex. It's just that from the outside they
appear to be simple. It is their simplicity and low which makes them
attractive to low end amplifier manufacturers. This is why you find them
in $199.00 all in one systems. Cheap, easy to use and hard to destroy.

Indeed.

The advantage of using an IC as in the gainclone is that all the complexity
is 'hidden' inside one small pack with just a few leads - making it easy
for someone who lacks experience to use it to make an amp.

The disadvantage of using an IC as in the gainclone is that all the
complexity is 'hidden' inside one small pack with just a few leads - thus
making any alteration of the complex circuit details inaccessible to an
experienced or knowledgeable designer who might want to alter details to
get improved performance or avoid some of the limitations of the IC.


Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

wrote

snip

A mile of ********, from what I could see of it....

We seem to agree on this - although as someone who changed to SI, I guess I
should say 'kilometer'... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article .com,
wrote:
While a single Power Humpty can run the entire unit, you
can use a second Power Humpty for true dual mono operation.

Presumably only if each is driven off its own mains generator?

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.