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Soundstage and depth of image
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote: **You need to get out (much) more. Here's a short list of reasonably famous designers (which people have actually heard of), who have runs on the board: John Curl Jim Bongiorno Ken Ishiwata Jeff Rowland Saul Marantz Dick Johnson Tim de Paravicini Peter Walker Peter Stein Jim Lesurf I'd like to make clear my alarm at being included in the above list! Although I appreciate that the critierion may be, "people on this newsgroup have probably heard of them." :-) Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Soundstage and depth of image
In article , TT
wrote: [snip] Again it makes it very difficult to evaluate because it has a noisy power supply so straight away I have a negative opinion. One of my pet hates is 50Hz hum :-( Mine also. Indeed. I regard it as unacceptable that domestic audio equipment should produce *any* 'mechanical noises' which can be heard in normal use. This is one of the reasons I have a distinct aversion of units that have things like cooling fans or hard discs. They may be 'quiet', but that isn't necesarily the same as 'silent' or 'inaudible'. Even some CD players/drives in my experience make audible noises produced by the disc rotation. More than one of the items I have bought, I had to dissassemble to fit various acoustic damping materials, or to alter the physical constuction, simply to stop the item making noises that were a distraction in use. Given that this generally only takes a bit of thought and/or 50p-worth of materials I find it depressing that manufacturers don't all do this as routine. FWIW It also baffles me that magazines often review products which can make such noises, yet make no reference to it whatsoever. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Soundstage and depth of image
"TT" wrote in message ... As I said Trevor, I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here at all. I have merely passed on some casual observations about an amp I have tried in relation to a known product that you like and respect. My reason for comment was to try and show there is some middle ground here. The amp is probably not as bad as you keep saying BUT at the same time it is not "the good one" that JT is commenting on that I have not yet heard. **"As bad as I keep saying"? Here are my exact words: --- They're cheap (power OP amps), reasonably well performing, easy to use and hard to destroy. --- Though it seems JT has managed to bugger up his effort. So IMHO after some limited testing it is not too bad but certainly not as good as the ME. Again it makes it very difficult to evaluate because it has a noisy power supply so straight away I have a negative opinion. One of my pet hates is 50Hz hum :-( This weekend I plan on having another listening session before returning it to JT. **Power OP amps are real easy to get right. That is what makes them so popular with home builders. Whack one on a PCB, pack a half dozen support components, a heat sink and a power supply. Presto! One functioning amplifier. What once took a home constructor a couple of weeks (with the attendant high probability of buggering things up), now takes an evening or two. They're bloody cheap, if you get it wrong and very comprehensively protected to boot. You have discovered the dirty secret of the hi fi biz - Connect a competent amplifier to a quality pair of speakers and the whole thing sounds pretty good. This is not news to anyone. Power OP amps are reasonable and, if built properly, competent. High end, they ain't. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Soundstage and depth of image
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... "TT" wrote in message ... As I said Trevor, I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here at all. I have merely passed on some casual observations about an amp I have tried in relation to a known product that you like and respect. My reason for comment was to try and show there is some middle ground here. The amp is probably not as bad as you keep saying BUT at the same time it is not "the good one" that JT is commenting on that I have not yet heard. **"As bad as I keep saying"? Here are my exact words: --- They're cheap (power OP amps), reasonably well performing, easy to use and hard to destroy. --- Though it seems JT has managed to bugger up his effort. So IMHO after some limited testing it is not too bad but certainly not as good as the ME. Again it makes it very difficult to evaluate because it has a noisy power supply so straight away I have a negative opinion. One of my pet hates is 50Hz hum :-( This weekend I plan on having another listening session before returning it to JT. **Power OP amps are real easy to get right. That is what makes them so popular with home builders. Whack one on a PCB, pack a half dozen support components, a heat sink and a power supply. Presto! One functioning amplifier. What once took a home constructor a couple of weeks (with the attendant high probability of buggering things up), now takes an evening or two. They're bloody cheap, if you get it wrong and very comprehensively protected to boot. You have discovered the dirty secret of the hi fi biz - Connect a competent amplifier to a quality pair of speakers and the whole thing sounds pretty good. This is not news to anyone. Power OP amps are reasonable and, if built properly, competent. High end, they ain't. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au Ahhhhhh................. Now I see a little clearer ;-) You have explained the topology of the amp very well for someone that has not seen it. Cheers TT |
Soundstage and depth of image
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , Trevor Wilson wrote: **You need to get out (much) more. Here's a short list of reasonably famous designers (which people have actually heard of), who have runs on the board: John Curl Jim Bongiorno Ken Ishiwata Jeff Rowland Saul Marantz Dick Johnson Tim de Paravicini Peter Walker Peter Stein Jim Lesurf I'd like to make clear my alarm at being included in the above list! Although I appreciate that the critierion may be, "people on this newsgroup have probably heard of them." :-) **LOL! I couldn't leave you out Jim. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Soundstage and depth of image
Trevor Wilson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Jim Lesurf wrote: In article m, wrote: One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly successful and regarded amplifier designer maker. He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also built and successfully marketed hybrids. The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but just out of curiosity and for a specific task. if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that I can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame" of the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual quality of the products. I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps incuding Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps. He also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than any non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and efficient speakers] So i am not the only delusional one. It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps using 'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found odder is the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either tried the items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering involved. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html Jim, Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their dicussion forums. Or search reviews in 6 Moons. Or visit the Supratek site. **Mr Maloney appears to eschew quoting even basic specifications for his equipment. What is he hiding? You seem to be under the impression that a bunch of people raving about a product, automatically confer some kind of status of the product and it's designer. It doesn't work that way. If it did, Bose would be the best audio products on the planet. After all, Bose avoid quoting specs too. Mr Maloney certainly builds attractive products, which are based on obsolete technology and are priced at a level which makes strong men weep. If he can make money out of it, then good luck to him. For me, I demand some basic specs from any manufacturer, before I take him seriously. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.He takes competent designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also sound good.There are plenty of products that measure well but sound terrible.His fine tuning may even result in products that don't measure as well [like some of Ken Ishawatas modifications] .This is pure speculation of course. Most of his clients couldn't care less about how well they measure.I have never,however heard from anywhere that they don't,and I know that he takes great care in running each of his products for an extended period on his test bench before sending them off to his customers. Obsolete technology? If anything is obsolete technology it is the monster transistor amps you seem to love.These are the real dinasaurs of audio. JT So valves are obsolete technology? |
Soundstage and depth of image
wrote in message oups.com... Trevor Wilson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Jim Lesurf wrote: In article m, wrote: One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly successful and regarded amplifier designer maker. He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also built and successfully marketed hybrids. The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but just out of curiosity and for a specific task. if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that I can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame" of the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual quality of the products. I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps incuding Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps. He also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than any non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and efficient speakers] So i am not the only delusional one. It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps using 'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found odder is the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either tried the items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering involved. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html Jim, Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their dicussion forums. Or search reviews in 6 Moons. Or visit the Supratek site. **Mr Maloney appears to eschew quoting even basic specifications for his equipment. What is he hiding? You seem to be under the impression that a bunch of people raving about a product, automatically confer some kind of status of the product and it's designer. It doesn't work that way. If it did, Bose would be the best audio products on the planet. After all, Bose avoid quoting specs too. Mr Maloney certainly builds attractive products, which are based on obsolete technology and are priced at a level which makes strong men weep. If he can make money out of it, then good luck to him. For me, I demand some basic specs from any manufacturer, before I take him seriously. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata. **I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff. He takes competent designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also sound good. **Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment? There are plenty of products that measure well but sound terrible. **Name them. His fine tuning may even result in products that don't measure as well [like some of Ken Ishawatas modifications] .This is pure speculation of course. **Indeed. You seem to engage in quite a bit of that. Most of his clients couldn't care less about how well they measure. **Irrelevant. I have never,however heard from anywhere that they don't,and I know that he takes great care in running each of his products for an extended period on his test bench before sending them off to his customers. **And yet there are no useful specs listed on his site for any of his equipment. Obsolete technology? **Yup. If anything is obsolete technology it is the monster transistor amps you seem to love. **Projection. I don't "love" objects. These are the real dinasaurs of audio. **Uh-huh. Tell us more. JT So valves are obsolete technology? **Of course. There is nothing (in audio) that can be done with valves, that cannot be achieved with transistors. With the possible exception of the gradual wearing out of valves from the instant they are switched on. That part is quite difficult to duplicate. Even the microphonic effects of valves can be duplicated, though I have no idea why anyone would want to do so. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Soundstage and depth of image
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... : In article , TT : wrote: : : [snip] : : Again it makes it very difficult to evaluate because it has a noisy : power supply so straight away I have a negative opinion. One of my pet : hates is 50Hz hum :-( : : Mine also. Indeed. I regard it as unacceptable that domestic audio : equipment should produce *any* 'mechanical noises' which can be heard in : normal use. This is one of the reasons I have a distinct aversion of units : that have things like cooling fans or hard discs. They may be 'quiet', but : that isn't necesarily the same as 'silent' or 'inaudible'. Even some CD : players/drives in my experience make audible noises produced by the disc : rotation. : : More than one of the items I have bought, I had to dissassemble to fit : various acoustic damping materials, or to alter the physical constuction, : simply to stop the item making noises that were a distraction in use. Given : that this generally only takes a bit of thought and/or 50p-worth of : materials I find it depressing that manufacturers don't all do this as : routine. : : FWIW It also baffles me that magazines often review products which can make : such noises, yet make no reference to it whatsoever. : : Slainte, : : Jim : I have had a similar argument with Cambridge Audio and their 640H music server. For a supposedly Audiophile product they put in the cheapest, nastiest, noisiest CPU cooling fan they could find that drove me nuts! What still amazes me is that we have made this giant leap into transparent optical/HD media that eradicates any medium noise only to build machines that put their own noise back into it! Why go from "noisy" LP to "quiet" CD only to have the machine generate all the hum/hiss/wish that you have just eradicated with the technology. One step forward and two back IMHO :-( Some of these insidious noises only become really apparent when you have lived with the unit for a short while in your domestic environment. So now when someone says to me "have you hear a chip amp?" I can now say "Hum a few bars and I'll let you know." :-)) Whinge mode OFF Cheers TT |
Soundstage and depth of image
"TT" wrote in message ... "Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message ... : : : Apologies guys, I haven't been following this thread closely but just out of : curiosity is the amplifier (JT's) referred to by TT a Robertson Audio Forty : Ten? : : Cheers, : Alan : It's the heavily modified one I sent you the pics of ;-) JT will be able to give you more details on it. Cheers TT Thanks TT. I suspected this is the one you were referring to. Not wishing to get up anyone's nose but the quality of the internal construction of this amplifier leaves a lot to be desired. It kind of reminded me of my first efforts with a soldering iron as a school aged teenager, having never at the time been showed how to solder properly. I do find it a bit difficult to accept this is actually a commercial product, albeit a modified one. Point to point wiring on tag strips (with the exception of the two small PCBs with the ICs etc) would be considered more the exception rather than the rule in a solid state design. Just re-examining the photos of the internals I think the hum problem may be traced back to what looks like IMHO an obvious dry joint on the -ve terminal on one of the ELNA can type smoothing capacitors. Also (but just guessing here as photos are quite often hard to get "the full picture" from) the earthing structure might be a bit "messy". Cheers, Alan |
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