Soundstage and depth of image
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:



One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly
successful and regarded amplifier designer maker.

He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also
built
and successfully marketed hybrids.



The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market
but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.

if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess
that I
can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame"
of
the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual
quality
of
the products.

I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile
friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps
incuding
Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single
ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps.
He
also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than
any
non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and
efficient
speakers] So i am not the only delusional one.

It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps
using
'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found
odder
is
the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either
tried
the
items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering
involved.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Jim,


Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums.
Or search reviews in 6 Moons.
Or visit the Supratek site.

**Mr Maloney appears to eschew quoting even basic specifications for his
equipment. What is he hiding?

You seem to be under the impression that a bunch of people raving about
a
product, automatically confer some kind of status of the product and
it's
designer. It doesn't work that way. If it did, Bose would be the best
audio
products on the planet. After all, Bose avoid quoting specs too. Mr
Maloney
certainly builds attractive products, which are based on obsolete
technology
and are priced at a level which makes strong men weep. If he can make
money
out of it, then good luck to him. For me, I demand some basic specs from
any
manufacturer, before I take him seriously.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.

**I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken
Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff.

He takes competent
designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer
Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also
sound good.

**Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment?

There are plenty of products that measure well but sound
terrible.

**Name them.

His fine tuning may even result in products that don't measure
as well [like some of Ken Ishawatas modifications] .This is pure
speculation of course.

**Indeed. You seem to engage in quite a bit of that.

Most of his clients couldn't care less about how well they measure.

**Irrelevant.

I
have never,however heard from anywhere that they don't,and I know that
he takes great care in running each of his products for an extended
period on his test bench before sending them off to his customers.

**And yet there are no useful specs listed on his site for any of his
equipment.

Obsolete technology?

**Yup.

If anything is obsolete technology it is the monster transistor amps
you seem to love.

**Projection. I don't "love" objects.

These are the real dinasaurs of audio.

**Uh-huh. Tell us more.


JT



So valves are obsolete technology?

**Of course. There is nothing (in audio) that can be done with valves,
that cannot be achieved with transistors. With the possible exception of
the gradual wearing out of valves from the instant they are switched on.
...............

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Gee Trevor, I've yet to figure out how some manufacturer's of SS equipment
manage to design that "timebomb" into their gear which magically goes off
just after the warranty expires. :-(

I have two multi-channel power amps which just after the 5 year warranty ran
out developed exactly the same fault (within a week of each other) in
exactly the same channel (left-rear). The in-built protection fortunately
activates protecting the speakers from damage as the output gets stuck hard
to the -ve supply rail. No components are faulty but exactly the same PCB
tracks develop dry joints which produced the fault. I just wish I knew more
people with the same model amp to compare notes to see just how widespread
the same fault may be.

Cheers,
Alan

Soundstage and depth of image
 

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

Gee Trevor, I've yet to figure out how some manufacturer's of SS equipment
manage to design that "timebomb" into their gear which magically goes off
just after the warranty expires. :-(

**Don't get me started. Back when I worked for a major importer, as service
manager, I received a highly confidential report into the reliability of the
manufacturer's products. They ranged from 0.5% to 100%, over the 3 year
warranty period. This was in the 1970s and the least reliable products (by a
considerable margin) were the quadraphonic (4 channel) ones. Though one of
my favourites (because, when it worked, it sounded bloody marvellous) was a
two channel power amp. Each one sold in Australia had to be repaired at
least 10 times during warranty. Owing to the complexity of the amp, each
reapir job took around 12 hours. From cradle to grave, the 300 amps
manufactured (world-wide) reportedly cost the company US$3 million.
Recently, I received similar information regrading the reliability of
another major importer's products from the service manager. It seems some
products are exhibiting a failure rate of a around 60%. And this is not a
fly-by-night, made in China manufacturer. It is one of the most respected
names in the business. It seems little has changed.


I have two multi-channel power amps which just after the 5 year warranty
ran out developed exactly the same fault (within a week of each other) in
exactly the same channel (left-rear). The in-built protection fortunately
activates protecting the speakers from damage as the output gets stuck
hard to the -ve supply rail. No components are faulty but exactly the
same PCB tracks develop dry joints which produced the fault. I just wish
I knew more people with the same model amp to compare notes to see just
how widespread the same fault may be.

**Which brand and model?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:



One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly
successful and regarded amplifier designer maker.

He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also
built
and successfully marketed hybrids.



The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.

if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that
I
can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame"
of
the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual
quality
of
the products.

I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile
friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps incuding
Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single
ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps. He
also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than
any
non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and
efficient
speakers] So i am not the only delusional one.

It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps
using
'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found
odder
is
the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either
tried
the
items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering
involved.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Jim,


Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums.
Or search reviews in 6 Moons.
Or visit the Supratek site.

**Mr Maloney appears to eschew quoting even basic specifications for his
equipment. What is he hiding?

You seem to be under the impression that a bunch of people raving about a
product, automatically confer some kind of status of the product and it's
designer. It doesn't work that way. If it did, Bose would be the best
audio
products on the planet. After all, Bose avoid quoting specs too. Mr
Maloney
certainly builds attractive products, which are based on obsolete
technology
and are priced at a level which makes strong men weep. If he can make
money
out of it, then good luck to him. For me, I demand some basic specs from
any
manufacturer, before I take him seriously.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.

**I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken
Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff.
That is an unfair if not libellous implication
He takes competent
designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer
Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also
sound good.

**Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment?
Very few audio product websites publish measurements.If they do it is probably because they are trying to justify a product which sounds terrible or has not been well reviewed.
There are plenty of products that measure well but sound
terrible.

**Name them.
Practicaly every transistor amplifier I have heard and a great percentage of mainstream modern speakers,Measure well,sound crap[Mission for example-no wonder they went bust]
His fine tuning may even result in products that don't measure
as well [like some of Ken Ishawatas modifications] .This is pure
speculation of course.

**Indeed. You seem to engage in quite a bit of that.
Well I do seem to remember reading some reviews on the Marantz KISE CD players that didn't measure as well as the standard versions[less even frequency response,higher distortion etc]
Most of his clients couldn't care less about how well they measure.

**Irrelevant.

INot at all
have never,however heard from anywhere that they don't,and I know that
he takes great care in running each of his products for an extended
period on his test bench before sending them off to his customers.

**And yet there are no useful specs listed on his site for any of his
equipment.

Obsolete technology?

**Yup.

If anything is obsolete technology it is the monster transistor amps
you seem to love.

**Projection. I don't "love" objects.

These are the real dinasaurs of audio.

**Uh-huh. Tell us more.
The PWM/digital types are already making them redundant with their greater efficiency,lower production cost and at least as good sound.

JT



So valves are obsolete technology?

**Of course. There is nothing (in audio) that can be done with valves, that
cannot be achieved with transistors. With the possible exception of the
gradual wearing out of valves from the instant they are switched on. That
part is quite difficult to duplicate. Even the microphonic effects of valves
can be duplicated, though I have no idea why anyone would want to do so.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article .com,
wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip poorly quoted message]


Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.

**I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken
Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff.
That is an unfair if not libellous implication
He takes competent
designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer
Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also
sound good.

**Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment?
Very few audio product websites publish measurements.If they do it is probably because they are trying to justify a product which sounds terrible or has not been well reviewed.

Curious that you assume the above assertion *isn't* "libellous", but that
Trevor's comments were... :-)

....although due to the poor format of your reply, it is quite hard to
distinguish his comments from yours.


There are plenty of products that measure well but sound
terrible.

**Name them.
Practicaly every transistor amplifier I have heard and a great percentage of mainstream modern speakers,Measure well,sound crap[Mission for example-no wonder they went bust]

Strange that my own experience is so different to yours. Rather than make a
sweeping assertion, and only mention one defunct brand, why not name some
*specific* amplifiers which we may also have a chance of being able to
hear, or may have used? Trevor didn't ask you for a sweeping assertion and
a brand name. He invited you to list the products you were referring to.

I also wonder what causes you to think an amp does "sound crap". Your
judgement might not be the same as mine, or of others.

For example, if you like a 'gainclone' type of design with low-value
reservour caps then that *might* be because you like the results of
high levels of ripple-signal intermodulation, varying dynamically with
the music. But I doubt that I or Trevor would prefer this.

I might have wanted to comment on the rest of the posting. However I gave
up on trying to work out which bits were by JT and which by Trevor.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article ,
Alan Rutlidge wrote:



I have two multi-channel power amps which just after the 5 year warranty
ran out developed exactly the same fault (within a week of each other)
in exactly the same channel (left-rear). The in-built protection
fortunately activates protecting the speakers from damage as the output
gets stuck hard to the -ve supply rail. No components are faulty but
exactly the same PCB tracks develop dry joints which produced the
fault. I just wish I knew more people with the same model amp to
compare notes to see just how widespread the same fault may be.

To me, the above sounds like either they had a batch of PCBs where some of
the solder pads were poorly made, or a problem with the automated
soldering, or that part of the board was getting hot/stressed in use for
some reason.

FWIW It is not unknown for 'design reasons' for specific faults to be more
common on a unit than others. One of the advantages of having a unit in
long-term production is that faults that only show up after a few years in
use can be dealt with by a mod or a change of component.

Alas, manufacturers often feel obliged to bring out a 'new model' - if only
to get mentioned in the magazines via a round of 'reviews'. Thus they may
not allow the time to sort such problems, so commit a new set in the new
design. FWIW I tend to be dubious of this practice, but I can quite see why
people do it since otherwise they risk being 'forgotten' in a world where
people only buy mags for a few months when they want to buy something.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Soundstage and depth of image
 

wrote in message
oups.com...


Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.

**I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken
Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff.
That is an unfair if not libellous implication

**Libellous? In what sense? Be precise please. I can tell you that Ken
Ishiwata is a VERY talented designer. That is not libellous in any sense of
the word.


He takes competent
designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer
Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also
sound good.

**Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment?
Very few audio product websites publish measurements.

**Wanna bet? How many would you like me to list, before I tire of listing
them? Here's a few (including some valve amp manufacturers):
http://www.audioresearch.com/reference210.htm
http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just...-products.html
http://www.bryston.ca/BrystonSite05/...cs.html#sstamp
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerp...Y2K.html#specs
http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/specs/ca2100.htm
http://www.marklevinson.com/products...asp?prod=no33h

Etc.


If they do it is probably because they are trying to justify a product
which sounds terrible or has not been well reviewed.

**Utter, banal nonsense. A manufacturer who does not publish a comprehensive
set of specs is either lazy, or has something to hide. There is no middle
ground here.

There are plenty of products that measure well but sound
terrible.

**Name them.
Practicaly every transistor amplifier I have heard and a great
percentage of mainstream modern speakers,Measure well,sound crap[Mission
for example-no wonder they went bust]

**I'll ask again: Name them.

His fine tuning may even result in products that don't measure
as well [like some of Ken Ishawatas modifications] .This is pure
speculation of course.

**Indeed. You seem to engage in quite a bit of that.
Well I do seem to remember reading some reviews on the Marantz KISE CD
players that didn't measure as well as the standard versions[less even
frequency response,higher distortion etc]

**Cite the review.

Most of his clients couldn't care less about how well they measure.

**Irrelevant.

INot at all
have never,however heard from anywhere that they don't,and I know that
he takes great care in running each of his products for an extended
period on his test bench before sending them off to his customers.

**And yet there are no useful specs listed on his site for any of his
equipment.

Obsolete technology?

**Yup.

If anything is obsolete technology it is the monster transistor amps
you seem to love.

**Projection. I don't "love" objects.

These are the real dinasaurs of audio.

**Uh-huh. Tell us more.
The PWM/digital types are already making them redundant with their
greater efficiency,lower production cost and at least as good sound.

**Not yet. Switching amps cannot cope with low impedances and 20kHz response
figures. When switching frequencies hit 5MHz, they will be more interesting.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip poorly quoted message]


Mick Maloney is probably more like Ken Ishawata.

**I very much doubt that. I've had some long conversations with Ken
Ishiwata. He REALLY knows his stuff.
That is an unfair if not libellous implication
He takes competent
designs which he develops in conjunction with New York audio engineer
Kevin Covi and fine tunes them so they not only measure well but also
sound good.

**Then why does he not publish any measurements of his equipment?
Very few audio product websites publish measurements.If they do it is probably because they are trying to justify a product which sounds terrible or has not been well reviewed.

Curious that you assume the above assertion *isn't* "libellous", but that
Trevor's comments were... :-)

...although due to the poor format of your reply, it is quite hard to
distinguish his comments from yours.


There are plenty of products that measure well but sound
terrible.

**Name them.
Practicaly every transistor amplifier I have heard and a great percentage of mainstream modern speakers,Measure well,sound crap[Mission for example-no wonder they went bust]

Strange that my own experience is so different to yours. Rather than make a
sweeping assertion, and only mention one defunct brand, why not name some
*specific* amplifiers which we may also have a chance of being able to
hear, or may have used? Trevor didn't ask you for a sweeping assertion and
a brand name. He invited you to list the products you were referring to.

I also wonder what causes you to think an amp does "sound crap". Your
judgement might not be the same as mine, or of others.

For example, if you like a 'gainclone' type of design with low-value
reservour caps then that *might* be because you like the results of
high levels of ripple-signal intermodulation, varying dynamically with
the music. But I doubt that I or Trevor would prefer this.

I might have wanted to comment on the rest of the posting. However I gave
up on trying to work out which bits were by JT and which by Trevor.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Yes ,

My apologies.I often confuse myself too.
Blame TW for messing with my head again.There is only so much ****
stirring a bloke can handle /dish out before he starts to lose the
plot.
Enough already.

God Bless Transdniestria !

Soundstage and depth of image
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

Gee Trevor, I've yet to figure out how some manufacturer's of SS
equipment manage to design that "timebomb" into their gear which
magically goes off just after the warranty expires. :-(

**Don't get me started. Back when I worked for a major importer, as
service manager, I received a highly confidential report into the
reliability of the manufacturer's products. They ranged from 0.5% to 100%,
over the 3 year warranty period. This was in the 1970s and the least
reliable products (by a considerable margin) were the quadraphonic (4
channel) ones. Though one of my favourites (because, when it worked, it
sounded bloody marvellous) was a two channel power amp. Each one sold in
Australia had to be repaired at least 10 times during warranty. Owing to
the complexity of the amp, each reapir job took around 12 hours. From
cradle to grave, the 300 amps manufactured (world-wide) reportedly cost
the company US$3 million. Recently, I received similar information
regrading the reliability of another major importer's products from the
service manager. It seems some products are exhibiting a failure rate of a
around 60%. And this is not a fly-by-night, made in China manufacturer. It
is one of the most respected names in the business. It seems little has
changed.


I have two multi-channel power amps which just after the 5 year warranty
ran out developed exactly the same fault (within a week of each other) in
exactly the same channel (left-rear). The in-built protection
fortunately activates protecting the speakers from damage as the output
gets stuck hard to the -ve supply rail. No components are faulty but
exactly the same PCB tracks develop dry joints which produced the fault.
I just wish I knew more people with the same model amp to compare notes
to see just how widespread the same fault may be.

**Which brand and model?

Sony TA-N9000ES 5 channel power amplifier (introduced late 1998 - early
1999??) and last of the ES separates before they started rolling out the new
integrated digital HT receiver crap.

The fault is common on both units to the left rear channel. There is a
Class A cascade section that uses 3 surface mount small signal bipolar
transistors. In both cases none of the semis were faulty but dry joints /
hairline fractures in the very narrow tracks in the underside of the PCB
associated with this part of the circuit were identified as the cause of the
fault. The fault causes the output of the LR channel to go full voltage to
the -ve supply rail, which causes the protection circuitry to operate
isolating the load from the amplifier's output. The visible flashing of the
power LED indicates to the user a serious fault has been detected.

Cheers,
Alan




--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:58:20 +0800, "Alan Rutlidge"
wrote:

I have two multi-channel power amps which just after the 5 year warranty ran
out developed exactly the same fault (within a week of each other) in
exactly the same channel (left-rear). The in-built protection fortunately
activates protecting the speakers from damage as the output gets stuck hard
to the -ve supply rail. No components are faulty but exactly the same PCB
tracks develop dry joints which produced the fault. I just wish I knew more
people with the same model amp to compare notes to see just how widespread
the same fault may be.

Well, perhaps if you divulged the make and model you MIGHT get to know
more people with the same amp!

WHY are people so coy about the very information that would make a
post worthwhile? :-)

Soundstage and depth of image
 

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:34:17 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

**Which brand and model?

And, of course, the same question to you?