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  #51 (permalink)  
Old August 15th 06, 09:55 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Soundstage and depth of image

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:



The fact that the amp hums, suggests extreme incompetence on the part of
the constructor. It SHOULD be deathly silent.


I would not be concerned if it were only audible in an otherwise silent
room when you put your ear close to the amp. But in my view it should
certainly be inaudible in such a room when you are sitting in a normal
listening location.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #53 (permalink)  
Old August 15th 06, 11:16 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Soundstage and depth of image


Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:



One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly
successful and regarded amplifier designer maker.


He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also built
and successfully marketed hybrids.




The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.


if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that I
can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame" of
the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual quality of
the products.

I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile
friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps incuding
Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single
ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps. He
also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than any
non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and efficient
speakers] So i am not the only delusional one.


It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps using
'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found odder is
the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either tried the
items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering involved.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html


Jim,


Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums.
Or search reviews in 6 Moons.
Or visit the Supratek site.

  #54 (permalink)  
Old August 16th 06, 03:38 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Soundstage and depth of image




wrote in message
ups.com...

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
The fact that the amp hums, suggests extreme incompetence on the part
of
the constructor. It SHOULD be deathly silent.


That occurred to me too. What's the reason - penny pinching?

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


The hum has been attributed to a PCB fault or damage.It would probably
be easy to fix but the builder has much better things to do with his
time than hunt around for the cause.I will have a tech look into it
later.

The other chip amp [Sonic Art] is very quiet.

It would be hard to imagine a less suited speaker to a chip amp than
TTs Equinox-with its many drivers,crossover complexity and low
impedence.Very many substantial SS amps would struggle on these-as the
smaller M.E.s did.That they still sound pretty good with the buggered
one is an indication of the potential of these things on less demanding
speakers.On such speakers their bass and treble is at least up to very
good SS amps of similar power,but as TT says,it is their midrange which
is special.I would add to that their image depth and precision,their
speed and their dynamics[both macro and micro].


**I suggest you read TT's words again. He was impressed with the power
OP
amp (except for the hum issues) on a value for money basis (something
I
have never denied), but felt is was not as good as his ME850. If you
can
manage to read something else into those words, then you are engaging
in
some kind of supernatural practices. Of course, TT can confirm or deny

your assertion.



Trevor I cannot agree that the midrange is most easy to get right.If
anything bass is most easy to get right.Any decent P.A. amp can do
reasonable bass.Even digital ones.


**Points:

* Your power OP amps did NOT get the bass right (see TT's words).
* I have consistently stated that switching amps SHOULD be able to
reproduce
lower frequency information better and more efficiently than any other
amplifier type. It is high frequencies (and low impedances) where
switching
amps run into problems.
* We are not discussing "reasonable bass". We are discussing high
fidelity. IOW: Accurate (20Hz) bass.
* An amplifier which cannot reproduce 20Hz - 20kHz with absolute
fidelity
is not high fidelity. It is something else.
* Midrange IS the easiest area to get right. Bass frequencies are
dominated by power supply and output device constraints (along with VI

limiting issues), whilst HF is dominated by output device speed, VI
limiting and stability/Zobel network constraints. With your
exceptional
technical skills, perhaps you'd care to explain why you think I am
wrong.
I'll wait.
* With small (ie: Limited bandwidth) speakers, a smaller amp can often

sound better than a large amp. Small bass drivers often perform better

with a small, bandwidth restricted amp. Just like a Gainclone, in
fact.
Such an effect can easily be compensated for, by using a filter before
a
large power amp.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

  #55 (permalink)  
Old August 16th 06, 07:34 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Soundstage and depth of image

In article .com,
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:


He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also
built and successfully marketed hybrids.




The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.


if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that
I can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged
"fame" of the designer may have no real relationship to do with the
actual quality of the products.



Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums. Or search reviews in 6 Moons. Or visit the Supratek
site.


Your point being that he is "famous" in the places where he is known? :-)

Regardless of which, my main point what that being "well known in
concentric circles" does not necessarily tell us anything about the actual
quality of the product.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #56 (permalink)  
Old August 16th 06, 11:03 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Soundstage and depth of image


Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:


He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also
built and successfully marketed hybrids.



The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.

if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that
I can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged
"fame" of the designer may have no real relationship to do with the
actual quality of the products.



Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums. Or search reviews in 6 Moons. Or visit the Supratek
site.


Your point being that he is "famous" in the places where he is known? :-)

Regardless of which, my main point what that being "well known in
concentric circles" does not necessarily tell us anything about the actual
quality of the product.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html


Jim,
I agree.It would be famous only in a cultish sort of way.
Probably the only famous audio designer would be Dr Bose-and largely
through spending lots of money promoting his own products.

  #57 (permalink)  
Old August 16th 06, 11:13 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Trevor Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 801
Default Soundstage and depth of image


wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:



One of my chip amps[a parallelled 4780]was built by a highly
successful and regarded amplifier designer maker.

He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also built
and successfully marketed hybrids.




The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.


if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess that I
can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged "fame" of
the designer may have no real relationship to do with the actual quality
of
the products.

I loaned my other chip amp -a Sonic Art 3876T kit to an audiophile
friend who owns and has owned all sorts of monster SS amps incuding
Pass Labs Aleph 3,Plinius,Audio Research,Luxman,M.E.850,HSA single
ended,Sugden A 21 as well as Bel Canto and ICE digital type amps. He
also agrees that this thing is a real giant killer and better than any
non valve amp he has heard.[This was using a valve preamp and efficient
speakers] So i am not the only delusional one.


It does not surprise me particulary if someone decides that some amps
using
'chips' sound as good or better as other types. What I have found odder
is
the predjudices people have on such grounds without having either tried
the
items in question, or having any understanding of the engineering
involved.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html


Jim,


Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums.
Or search reviews in 6 Moons.
Or visit the Supratek site.


**Mr Maloney appears to eschew quoting even basic specifications for his
equipment. What is he hiding?

You seem to be under the impression that a bunch of people raving about a
product, automatically confer some kind of status of the product and it's
designer. It doesn't work that way. If it did, Bose would be the best audio
products on the planet. After all, Bose avoid quoting specs too. Mr Maloney
certainly builds attractive products, which are based on obsolete technology
and are priced at a level which makes strong men weep. If he can make money
out of it, then good luck to him. For me, I demand some basic specs from any
manufacturer, before I take him seriously.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #58 (permalink)  
Old August 16th 06, 11:31 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Trevor Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 801
Default Soundstage and depth of image


wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article m,
wrote:


He is most famous for his valve amps and preamps but has also
built and successfully marketed hybrids.



The chip amp was built by Mick Maloney of Supratek.Not to market
but
just out of curiosity and for a specific task.

if this is who you are referring to above, then I have to confess
that
I can't recall having heard his name before. However the alleged
"fame" of the designer may have no real relationship to do with the
actual quality of the products.



Do a Supratek search in Audiogon.There is plenty of info in their
dicussion forums. Or search reviews in 6 Moons. Or visit the Supratek
site.


Your point being that he is "famous" in the places where he is known?
:-)

Regardless of which, my main point what that being "well known in
concentric circles" does not necessarily tell us anything about the
actual
quality of the product.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html


Jim,
I agree.It would be famous only in a cultish sort of way.
Probably the only famous audio designer would be Dr Bose-and largely
through spending lots of money promoting his own products.


**You need to get out (much) more. Here's a short list of reasonably famous
designers (which people have actually heard of), who have runs on the board:

John Curl
Jim Bongiorno
Ken Ishiwata
Jeff Rowland
Saul Marantz
Dick Johnson
Tim de Paravicini
Peter Walker
Peter Stein
Jim Lesurf

These are people who not only are well known and highly regarded in the area
of amplifier design, but that actually properly specify (or specified) the
products they designed. There are many others, of course. I've chatted to
four of the above designers and find them to be modest, educated and careful
about design aspects, so that objective performance is maximised. All care
about specifications.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #59 (permalink)  
Old August 17th 06, 01:33 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Alan Rutlidge
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Soundstage and depth of image


"TT" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message .. .
:
: wrote in message
: s.com...
: So i am not the only delusional one.
:
: **No one ever suggested you were.
:
:
: --
: Trevor Wilson
: www.rageaudio.com.au
:
:
Please note here Trevor I do not want to get involved in
your argument with JT nor class myself as delusional but I
thought I would just make a few comments on this subject.

As you know I have a ME850/24 combo driving some large 2 Ohm
Apogee speakers and yes I do believe what I have is very
good indeed. JT has kindly loaned me one of these Chip Amps
for a comparison and we did some testing while he was still
at my place.

Now before anyone brings up DBT/ABX it would be a pointless
exercise as a slight 50Hz hum from the power supply of the
chip amp is a dead give away ;-) So even turning it on
negates any unbiased test :-( So if we forget about the
power supply and concentrate on the performance part, then I
can say that the amp does a surprisingly good job and gives
the 850 a run for it's money (so speak). Mid range is very
similar but I can pick differences at either side. What I
would say though is that it does sound like a lot of valve
amps that I have heard over the years and so can understand
why people would like them.

BTW I am yet to hear JT's good one in his system so I will
reserve final judgement ;-)

I would just like to point out that it is always difficult
to fully comprehend what someone is actually listening to on
their system unless you physically hear it for yourself ;-)

Cheers TT



Apologies guys, I haven't been following this thread closely but just out of
curiosity is the amplifier (JT's) referred to by TT a Robertson Audio Forty
Ten?

Cheers,
Alan


  #60 (permalink)  
Old August 17th 06, 03:19 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
TT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Soundstage and depth of image


"Alan Rutlidge" wrote
in message
...
:

:
: Apologies guys, I haven't been following this thread
closely but just out of
: curiosity is the amplifier (JT's) referred to by TT a
Robertson Audio Forty
: Ten?
:
: Cheers,
: Alan
:
It's the heavily modified one I sent you the pics of ;-) JT
will be able to give you more details on it.

Cheers TT


 




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