Eeyore wrote:

[Snipped Text]

Indeed, and I agree. However, there is science to suggest that the
effect does happen, but as you say, to what extent, and is it worth
consideration?

What you should consider is *what effect* rather than simply accept what
advertisers tell you to believe.

You're rather incorrectly assuming that I believe advertisers.

Since a length of cable and a louspeaker load form a complex electrical
filter to a small degree, it's inevitable that changing the cable will
'sound different' if only because the frequency response will differ
slightly. That much is assured although the extend to which it's audible
could be debated at some length.

Quite obviously.

There is additionaly a huge amout of self-deception over what is or isn't
audible no doubt based on these well-distributed myths that the hi-fi
fraternity would have you buy into ( quite literally).

Well, in my case I just bought some rolls of cable from CPC, at a very
good price, and had enough to biwire. The Castles didn't have their
links when I bought them (second hand), so I just biwired them instead.
I didn't spend a great deal of money doing this, or a lot of time
pondering it. The net result, I have a system that sounds good, whether
the biwiring actually makes a difference is irrelevant.

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/

Andy Hewitt wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

APR wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

You haven't even the tiniset clue I suspect how stupid and just plain
ignorant you are.

Graham, I am suprised you took that seriously.

That's before I saw your later post. It looked scarily like what passes for
science to audiophools.

Maybe we should see if Andy can detect the difference ?

What on earth makes you think I'd even consider mentioning this subject
here again, or even contributing at all. I'll probably do the test, just
to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to post
the results here.

And that's all the gratitude we get for saving you a few hundred quid ?

Graham

Andy Hewitt wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

[Snipped Text]

Indeed, and I agree. However, there is science to suggest that the
effect does happen, but as you say, to what extent, and is it worth
consideration?

What you should consider is *what effect* rather than simply accept what
advertisers tell you to believe.

You're rather incorrectly assuming that I believe advertisers.

The editorial content of most hi-fi mags *is* a form of advertsing.


Since a length of cable and a louspeaker load form a complex electrical
filter to a small degree, it's inevitable that changing the cable will
'sound different' if only because the frequency response will differ
slightly. That much is assured although the extend to which it's audible
could be debated at some length.

Quite obviously.

There is additionaly a huge amout of self-deception over what is or isn't
audible no doubt based on these well-distributed myths that the hi-fi
fraternity would have you buy into ( quite literally).

Well, in my case I just bought some rolls of cable from CPC, at a very
good price, and had enough to biwire. The Castles didn't have their
links when I bought them (second hand), so I just biwired them instead.
I didn't spend a great deal of money doing this, or a lot of time
pondering it. The net result, I have a system that sounds good, whether
the biwiring actually makes a difference is irrelevant.

As long as it sounds good to you that's what ultimately matters. I'm please you
saved yourself a few bob in the process - and didn't help line the pockets of
the snake-oil merchants too.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

[Snipped Text]

I'm sorry to say that you haven't shown much 'professionalism' here
then. You're only contribution has been 'utter drivel', without saying
why you think so.

It's utter drivel because it's not only non-scientific it's actually a form of
'anti-science' ! Do I have to explain what's bad about that too ?

No, please don't.

Professionals have to put up with twits repeating this drivel day in and
day out so I hope you'll excuse me if we get a bit tired of it.

Actually, I do understand you on that one, but I don't normally flame up
so quickly, but then I'm a twit! I think you need a holiday ;-)

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/

Phil Allison wrote:

"Andy Hewitt ****wit TROLL "


** Insane Groper Alert !

http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemp...ewssectionID=3
http://www.home-cinema-guide.co.uk/biwire4.htm



** No science in sight there anywhere.

Just the same old load of pure unadulterated, snake oil ******** !!


It's better than any of the insulting retorts I've had my way.


** YOU are a TOTAL ****ING IDIOT - Andy.

******s like YOU are a dime a dozen all over the world.

Did I touch a nerve?

You comprehend no science whatever - just like some native living in a
grass shack.

Witchcraft and VooDoo are your idea of "science".

All the planets worst charlatans and snake oil dealing CRIMINAL SCUM just
ADORE fools like you.

Audiophools like YOU line their filthy pockets and keep them in business.

**** the hell off -

Yes, I will, I don't really need to read that in my own home. I'm just
so glad I don't have to go down to your level. Somebody said you were a
professional - surely a joke!

before I really get annoyed with you.

And what?

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/

Eeyore wrote:

[Snipped Text]

Well, in my case I just bought some rolls of cable from CPC, at a very
good price, and had enough to biwire. The Castles didn't have their
links when I bought them (second hand), so I just biwired them instead.
I didn't spend a great deal of money doing this, or a lot of time
pondering it. The net result, I have a system that sounds good, whether
the biwiring actually makes a difference is irrelevant.

As long as it sounds good to you that's what ultimately matters. I'm
please you saved yourself a few bob in the process - and didn't help line
the pockets of the snake-oil merchants too.

If you look back at my first post, you will see that was exactly my
intention. I was originally supporting the purchase of cheap cable from
Farnell. There have been too many assumptions made here, mostly
incorrectly.

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/

Eeyore wrote:

[Snipped Text]

Maybe we should see if Andy can detect the difference ?

What on earth makes you think I'd even consider mentioning this subject
here again, or even contributing at all. I'll probably do the test, just
to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to post
the results here.

And that's all the gratitude we get for saving you a few hundred quid ?

Nobody has saved me anything. I would never spend more than I had to on
cabling, certainly not 'a few hundred quid'.

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/

Andy Hewitt wrote:

I didn't say it was, but nobody else, apart from you, has actually
offered any evidence in return - other than '********' and 'bull****'.
They're certainly not terms I can remember using in Physics.

I have used "bull****" at least once in this thread, although perhaps not in
reply to you. That aside, I don't neccessarily disagree with the assessments
of the gentlemen concerned.


Yes, I realise that, I was trying to make a point.

To which the counterpoint is: This is an unmoderated public newsgroup, which
means that the flak comes with the turf.


The basic tenet of all this bi-wiring stuff, fancy cables and all
the rest is that it's all based on physics somewhere along the line.
The problem is, the physics it's based on is often plain false,
misapplied, or of such minimal effect as to be completely
disregradable.

Indeed, and I agree. However, there is science to suggest that the
effect does happen, but as you say, to what extent, and is it worth
consideration?

It may or may not affect a particular system, and it may or may not be
heard by the listener. If it is heard, then there's no doubt that the
effect does exist.

Which begs the question of what the precise circumstances were, under which
it was heard.


Yes. But this is essentially nothing to do with science. This is to do
with what a listener prefers to hear.

I think it has to do with *whether anything can be heard*. The listener's
preference is an entirely different thing, and I don't think any of this
debate has been about what one should or should not prefer. Rather, it has
been about whether a certain speaker wiring topology can be audibly
different from the norm. Note that neither of those articles gave an
indication of the *magnitude* this 'overpowering the treble' effect. The
crap that these people promulgate has got more holes than a fishing net.


There is no doubt that my system sounds extremely good in its current
configuration. I have yet to try it without biwiring the speakers, but
I'm tempted to do so now. However, there won't be anything scientific
about it, as it'll be my own personal preference that decides whether
one is better than the other or not.

I think bi-wiring is a waste of money. Nobody is going to convince me that
converting a short circuit to 50 milliohms is going to make a blind bit of
difference when there are so many other, more significant, factors that
will: choice of speakers, speaker position, room layout, room surfaces,
listener's position, listener's mood, what listener had for his tea. Change
the speaker straps to fifty milliohm resistors (by buying twice as much
cable)? Gimme a break! :-)


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

"Andy Hewitt ****wit TROLL "


** YOU are a TOTAL ****ING IDIOT - Andy.

******s like YOU are a dime a dozen all over the world.

You comprehend no science whatever - just like some native living in a
grass shack.

Witchcraft and VooDoo are your idea of "science".

All the planets worst charlatans and snake oil dealing CRIMINAL SCUM just
ADORE fools like you.

Audiophools like YOU line their filthy pockets and keep them in business.

**** the hell off -

before I really get annoyed with you.






........ Phil

Wally wrote:

[Snipped Text]

Yes, I realise that, I was trying to make a point.

To which the counterpoint is: This is an unmoderated public newsgroup, which
means that the flak comes with the turf.

Indeed.

The basic tenet of all this bi-wiring stuff, fancy cables and all
the rest is that it's all based on physics somewhere along the line.
The problem is, the physics it's based on is often plain false,
misapplied, or of such minimal effect as to be completely
disregradable.

Indeed, and I agree. However, there is science to suggest that the
effect does happen, but as you say, to what extent, and is it worth
consideration?

It may or may not affect a particular system, and it may or may not be
heard by the listener. If it is heard, then there's no doubt that the
effect does exist.

Which begs the question of what the precise circumstances were, under which
it was heard.

No idea, I didn't do them.

Yes. But this is essentially nothing to do with science. This is to do
with what a listener prefers to hear.

I think it has to do with *whether anything can be heard*. The listener's
preference is an entirely different thing, and I don't think any of this
debate has been about what one should or should not prefer. Rather, it has
been about whether a certain speaker wiring topology can be audibly
different from the norm. Note that neither of those articles gave an
indication of the *magnitude* this 'overpowering the treble' effect. The
crap that these people promulgate has got more holes than a fishing net.

I don't believe we can disregard the fact that *in theory* the sound
*could* be affected in such a way. However, I have never attempted to
suggest any significance to the magnitude.

There is no doubt that my system sounds extremely good in its current
configuration. I have yet to try it without biwiring the speakers, but
I'm tempted to do so now. However, there won't be anything scientific
about it, as it'll be my own personal preference that decides whether
one is better than the other or not.

I think bi-wiring is a waste of money.

Look, so do I - unless it doesn't cost anything to do, which in my case
it didn't (I bought the rolls of cable at a good price, so would have
had the cable available anyway). The result being, no harm done, I
basically have very thick cables to my speakers in the worst case.

In all of this, I've never even actually condoned it. I was flippantly
stating the reason biwiring is used by some people. You can find enough
discussions if you go to Google.

--
Andy Hewitt
http://www.thehewitts.eclipse.co.uk/
http://web.mac.com/andrewhewitt1/