"Keith G" wrote in message
...


I never yet met a God Botherer who wasn't a serious PITA with an
*attitude* that would make Hitler look jolly!!

(David H excepted!! ;-)


When I need cheering up, I play one of his recordings:-))


*shudder*

(All those purple smocks.....!! :-)

IO have no problem with the purple smocks, but the tambourines,
and the collection bag fixed to the end of a stick so that none of
the brethren can nick it, well........:-))

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


As you well know. Dave, levels of pay in our industry are skill related.

ahem Given the clipping and related oddities I've encountered on some
CDs
I must confess to having my doubts as to how that 'skill' is judged and
applied in various cases. In some cases it is a 'skill' I'd be embarassed
to possess, although I guess if they are mainly concerned by their pay,
they may not be bothered... :-)´

People employed in independent studios and mastering facilities are
obliged to carry out the wishes of their clients, even if those wishes do
not always correspond with the best result.

Most broadcasting companies and many record companies are corporations,
so I wonder if your use of the word "private" is appropriate?

You mean they are "public" in the same sense as some schools in the UK are
called "public schools"?... :-)

If you like:-)))
Iain

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:

As you well know. Dave, levels of pay in our industry are skill related.

ahem Given the clipping and related oddities I've encountered on some
CDs
I must confess to having my doubts as to how that 'skill' is judged and
applied in various cases. In some cases it is a 'skill' I'd be embarassed
to possess, although I guess if they are mainly concerned by their pay,
they may not be bothered... :-)

Jim. May I ask you a question? As a lover of classical music,
are you pleased with the standard of mastering of the CDs
you have in your collection? I am pretty sure the answer is
"yes". If not, I would be interested to read a list of recordings
that do not meet your expectations (bearing in mind that you
really need to AB between the production master and the
CD to know if there is anything wrong)

As a jazz fan, and a recording professional, I rarely find a
jazz CD which does not lived up to my expectations as
far as the mastering is concerned (bearing in mid that
much of the jazz repertoire is historical material, often
from concerts and club dates)

If I ask pop music fans, as I have done on many
occasions, "are you happy with the quality of the product",
they reply in the affirmative.

So, generally speaking, the mastering engineer has succeeded in
pleasing both producer and audience in three major, very different,
genres of music. Doesn't this rather negate your comment about lack
of skill in mastering?

A chef may offer Beef Wellington as his speciality, but if some of
the customers insists on soggy pie and mash.......

Cordially
Iain.

In article , Iain
Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:

As you well know. Dave, levels of pay in our industry are skill
related.

ahem Given the clipping and related oddities I've encountered on
some CDs I must confess to having my doubts as to how that 'skill' is
judged and applied in various cases.

Jim. May I ask you a question? As a lover of classical music, are you
pleased with the standard of mastering of the CDs you have in your
collection? I am pretty sure the answer is "yes".

Overall, "yes". :-)


If not, I would be interested to read a list of recordings that do not
meet your expectations

The problem is that the situation varies from CD to CD, and from genre to
genre.

If you look at the 'Clipping On CD' webpage I put up a week or two ago
you'll find the worst example for a Classical CD that I found. Indeed, that
was the worst example of *any* CD I found. Yet is sold as "Mercury
Living Presence" and presented as being an audiophile item. So why is
it clipped? Didn't anyone involved in mastering it from the original
tapes *notice*?

But apart from this, the problems seem to be with pop/rock music in the
main. Although I have found some Jazz examples. The example given on the
above page is a Horace Silver track. The music is great, yet it is clearly
clipped when there was no need for that.

(bearing in mind that you really need to AB
between the production master and the CD to know if there is anything
wrong)

That is incorrect in this context.

A 'flat top' series of successive samples at the maximum sample
value can be identified as clipping. Particularly when the sample runs of
the same value crop up repeatedly during the track/CD.

When it happens with music which was originally recorded on analogue tape
it simply does not have the characteristics of analog tape . The flat-top
is simply too precise.

Also, in some cases I have multiples versions, and some show the clipping
when others don't. Ditto with level compressions.

Interestingly, I also have some examples of flat-top clipping at a sample
value *below* the CD max. This implies the signal was clipped before the
final stage when the CD sample sets were produced.

Have a look at the 1812, Hendrix, and Silver examples on the webpage. Do
you not think they are clipped?

As a jazz fan, and a recording professional, I rarely find a jazz CD
which does not lived up to my expectations as far as the mastering is
concerned (bearing in mid that much of the jazz repertoire is historical
material, often from concerts and club dates)

I also find that most Classical and Jazz CDs are fine - but with a caveat
wrt the forthcoming article I mention below. Alas, this isn't universal,
and some of the examples don't seem to me to demonstrate a 'skill' I'd be
pleased to have - hence my comments.

If I ask pop music fans, as I have done on many occasions, "are you
happy with the quality of the product", they reply in the affirmative.

They may also do so for low bitrate MP3s, or heavily level compressed radio
braodcasts (where already-compressed CDs may be compressed even more
when transmitted). As I said, selling this may be a 'skill', but not one
I'd be proud of, myself.

So, generally speaking, the mastering engineer has succeeded in
pleasing both producer and audience in three major, very different,
genres of music.

The distinction is between "generally" and specific examples, I'm afraid. I
can't see that any engineer need clip the signals. To do so seems to me to
be an accident, or complacent ignorance, or cynical.

Doesn't this rather negate your comment about lack of
skill in mastering?

I don't think so. However rather than give more details here I'll direct
you to an article that will be appearing in Hi Fi News next month. :-)

In that I revisit this topic from a slightly different approach. For the
sake of my editor I won't say more until the article appears. ;-

FWIW as with previous HFN articles, a few months after it appears I'll put
an expanded version up on the AudioMisc site.

A chef may offer Beef Wellington as his speciality, but if some of the
customers insists on soggy pie and mash.......

The problem is that usually they aren't offerred *both*. If they like a
specific artist and/or peice of music then they are offerred what the
makers produce. Thus it becomes "clipped/compressed or not at all" for
quite a lot of pop/rock. The choice is Hobson's in many cases. Indeed,
there is no written comment on the relevant CD to the effect that "we've
clipped this to make it louder". So the problem is that the "chef" simply
isn't "offering" the better version on CD in some cases. TINA.

Unless, of course, you mean that the LP version (where it exists) isn't
similarly clipped. But again, if this is the case, no-one I know of is
saying, "We sell both the CD and LP versions. We've clipped the CD version,
so you might want to take that into account."

Or, "We can sell you Beethoven's 9th unclipped, or Hendrix clipped". The
problems here are obvious.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html

"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!

You get points for your vivid imagination, Keith. Your reputation for
perceiving purported physical events and objects that have no basis in
reality goes before you.

It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others cheers you up,
Keith. Perhaps there is a dog or cock fight that you could go and entertain
yourself with?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!

You get points for your vivid imagination, Keith. Your reputation for
perceiving purported physical events and objects that have no basis in
reality goes before you.


Not at all, it's plain for all to see - Iain snaps his fingers and you
'n Plowie jump like you've been stung! :-)



It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others cheers you
up, Keith.


Do you really think that - after reading all my *group's leading wag*
posts? Or are you in some sort of Denial again?


Perhaps there is a dog or cock fight that you could go and entertain
yourself with?


If you mean going to see some nasty, mean-spirited, bullying ****er get
its come-uppance then, yes, I guess I wouldn't mind...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!


It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others cheers you up,
Keith. Perhaps there is a dog or cock fight that you could go and
entertain yourself with?

Arny. Some time ago, I was curious as to your raison
d'etre on RAT which is a NG dedicated to tube audio,
after both you and Stewart P expressed your disdain
for tubes and the people who enjoyed building amplifiers
with them.

Stewart used the term "spearing fish in a barrel" and you stated
that it was your duty to keep Patrick Turner under control
(rather a sad deluded statement, as the level of Patrick's
knowledge is at least 60dB above your own!) Both of
you, as I recall used the term "feet of clay" to describe others
on the group.

But whatever your agenda, together with Stewart, you
succeeded in driving away some good people, before
Stewart's rather sudden demise.

Your attempted alliances first with Stewart, then with
Phil A and others were clearly rejected and a number
of people on RAT and other groups have politely, and
sometimes less-than-politely asked/told you to p*ss off
(their term, not mine) Doesn't that tell you anything?

And now you talk about "harm and discomfort in others"
Just a tiny bit hypocritical, wouldn't you agree?

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!

It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others
cheers you up, Keith. Perhaps there is a dog or cock
fight that you could go and entertain yourself with?

Arny. Some time ago, I was curious as to your raison
d'etre on RAT which is a NG dedicated to tube audio,
after both you and Stewart P expressed your disdain
for tubes and the people who enjoyed building amplifiers
with them.

As usual Iain, your imagination is working overtime. Once people quit
pressing the myth that tubes necessarily sound better than the best SS
equipment, I can enjoy tubes for what they are - a technological sentimental
journey, and a technological backwater for people who can't master the more
difficult art of building SS power amps.

Stewart used the term "spearing fish in a barrel" and you
stated that it was your duty to keep Patrick Turner under
control (rather a sad deluded statement, as the level of
Patrick's knowledge is at least 60dB above your own!)

In your dreams Iain, even your alleged level of technical knowlege is 144
db above mine.

Both of you, as I recall used the term "feet of clay" to describe
others on the group.

Oh come on Iain don't be shy. I used "feet of clay" to describe you.
However, I vastly understated the percentage of you that is clay, it
developed.

But whatever your agenda, together with Stewart, you
succeeded in driving away some good people, before
Stewart's rather sudden demise.

Prove it.

Your attempted alliances first with Stewart, then with
Phil A and others were clearly rejected and a number
of people on RAT and other groups have politely, and
sometimes less-than-politely asked/told you to p*ss off
(their term, not mine) Doesn't that tell you anything?

Prove it.

And now you talk about "harm and discomfort in others"

A phrase that trolled you quite effectively, Iain. Thanks for indicting
yourself again!

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!


It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others cheers you
up,
Keith. Perhaps there is a dog or cock fight that you could go and
entertain yourself with?

Arny. Some time ago, I was curious as to your raison
d'etre on RAT which is a NG dedicated to tube audio,
after both you and Stewart P expressed your disdain
for tubes and the people who enjoyed building amplifiers
with them.

Stewart used the term "spearing fish in a barrel" and you stated
that it was your duty to keep Patrick Turner under control
(rather a sad deluded statement, as the level of Patrick's
knowledge is at least 60dB above your own!) Both of
you, as I recall used the term "feet of clay" to describe others
on the group.

But whatever your agenda, together with Stewart, you
succeeded in driving away some good people, before
Stewart's rather sudden demise.

Your attempted alliances first with Stewart, then with
Phil A and others were clearly rejected and a number
of people on RAT and other groups have politely, and
sometimes less-than-politely asked/told you to p*ss off
(their term, not mine) Doesn't that tell you anything?

And now you talk about "harm and discomfort in others"
Just a tiny bit hypocritical, wouldn't you agree?


'Ang on a minute - Arny has never been a *tiny* bit hypocritical in his
entire life...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


And isn't he doing a great job? Seeing you and the other
remaining wrecker of this group (Plowie) squirming and
squealing, like you both are, is most amusing -
especially when he seems to be able to do it so easily!

It appears that imagining harm and discomfort for others
cheers you up, Keith. Perhaps there is a dog or cock
fight that you could go and entertain yourself with?

Arny. Some time ago, I was curious as to your raison
d'etre on RAT which is a NG dedicated to tube audio,
after both you and Stewart P expressed your disdain
for tubes and the people who enjoyed building amplifiers
with them.

As usual Iain, your imagination is working overtime. Once people quit
pressing the myth that tubes necessarily sound better than the best SS
equipment, I can enjoy tubes for what they are - a technological
sentimental journey, and a technological backwater for people who
can't master the more difficult art of building SS power amps.


I'm sure one reason people turned to valves was to build a better amp
they could buy for anything like the same amount of money and many would
have chosen valves as the easier route, but I'm not sure even that's
valid now that the Chinese are *fully* onboard - at all price levels. I
suspect that anybody who builds a valve amp now is because they *want*
to and can only surmise they prefer the resultant sound from one.

Don't assume that others can't hear the benefits, simply because you
(obviously) can't....