Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
IME, only a real prick uses the words 'pray tell'....

Don't think I'm too worried about your literary opinions, Keithie baby.


Literary? You consider your posts 'literature'....??

Any written word may be called literature, Keithie. Thanks for confirming
my statement.

Dave. You are sounding more and more like dear old
Arny every day. This may, or may not, be a good thing:-)

Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:
Be interesting to know who can command a higher fee - a dubbing mixer
on a top movie or a recording engineer on a hit pop recording. I'd
guess the former.


Few dubbing jobs are "top movies".

Few hit records made either these days. Tiny sales compared to once.

Classical and jazz productions are my genre. A great deal
of the material is not for commercial release, but for
academy and foundation use.

So-called "hit-records" are of purely passing interest.
I enjoy listening to them in the way the coroner is interested
in performing a post-mortem:-) I like to find out how the
music has been put together, "What makes it tick" as they say.
Music is constantly evolving.


Dolby surround mixes for
corporate programmes are fun,

Oh - you work on 'corporates'? Never mind. Just don't mention it on your
CV.

Haven't done any corporate work for a while.
But clients like Nokia, Ericsson, Volvo, and
Sony Classical look fine on the CV. They
usually write a personalletter of thanks also
for a high-class job. These are nice to keep.
I am sure you get them as well?


but TV has both technical and budget restrictions.

Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would
not need to ask. Perhaps they are better classed as
artistic restrictions, in the "No point in doing that,
because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

And the budget for most corporates is
tiny - as well as being a one off which prevents the spreading of costs as
in a series.

Good corporate clients are not too budget conscious.
Quality is what they are concerned with.


And, as one of my favourite producers is fond of saying "God is in the
detail" :-)

And he produces which movies?´

He is a record producer, with a meticulous ear.

Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Iain Churches" in
. saunalahti.fi:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would
not need to ask. Perhaps they are better classed as
artistic restrictions, in the "No point in doing that,
because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

I don't understand that! I'm sure I'm not alone in using my "TV" [1] merely
as a monitor off my Nicam stereo "hi-fi" VCR, and running the sound through a
Dolby Prologic (or quality stereo, depending on the room) amp [2], as I have
for at least the last 15 years ... I haven't even bothered with 5.1+ etc. yet,
but I certainly appreciate good sound on programmes where it exists!

RdM

The previous post:

Few dubbing jobs are "top movies". Dolby surround mixes for
corporate programmes are fun, but TV has both technical
and budget restrictions. (Before you ask - there is little point
building up complex and subtle layers of ambience and low
level FX which no one will ever hear from TV)

[1] I don't even have a working "TV". Only monitors.
[2] Amplifier, not just some cheap "receiver"!

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

But perhaps you'd answer my question about the relevance of LTC/VITC
when dealing with an analogue audio recorder? Even if 'the EBU' think
there is?

I have done that twice. The term LTC is used on EBU documentation
because it describes the actual code, not the governing body.

I'm still not sure what 'EBU documentation' is. Perhaps the companies you
work for buy it in because they can't afford to print their own.

Available in every language usd in the EBU member
countries - even Estonian:-) It is supplied specifically to
ensure standardisation, so that members *do not*
print their own versions of what they think is required.

And I've
never seem it on the few multi-track tapes I've had to deal with which
originated in Europe.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with them because they require
the signature of somone higher up the ladder, usually a head
of department or sound supervisor who takes responsibility.

It is a smiliar situation when you sign over material to
Sky Broadcasting or any other satelite company.
You really put your head on the block.

As we have discussed before, some companies
ask for audio to be offset to picture!! Yours is not
to reason why. If you do not meet their instructions
to the letter, (or the frame:-) your client will forfeit
(but still have to pay for) his transmission slot.


I sort of gathered that. What does surprise me is that 'we' obviously have
rather higher technical standards than you - since you seem to think it
an OK idea to put the principle track on an adjacent one to the code.

Should I write in capital letters for you? Music multi-tracks
rarely if ever have LTC in music recording. The fad of
sending TC guide tracks around the world for strings, brass,
vocals etc to be added in LA, Chicago, London and Wigan,
faded out years ago.

Even the most lowly dubbing suite I've worked in for TV with its
'technical and budget restrictions' - remember those words? - wouldn't
dream of mixing time code and audio on the same jackfield.

Perhaps NDR one of Germany's largest broadcasters, should
avail themselves of your expertise and superior knowledge:-)
They are currently fitting out a brand new music studio with a
large-format Lewo console. Both TC and house sync are
brought up on the jackfield just as I have described.

Bitte. Seis! Herr Plowman is coming to show us how it should
be done. LOL.

I wonder about your so called music recording experience since you clearly
don't know much about the upper end of analogue tape recorders if you've
not come across a multi-track designed for use with time code. And sing
the praises of Levers Rich.

Leevers Rich, Dave. Double "ee". The man's name was Norman Leevers.
I like it for sentimental reasons. The one I own personally has been an
interesting renovation project. It now performs as well as the day it
was made, and fully meets both the IEC and NAB specs.


But you really are the most pretentious snob, Iain. And know little about
television.

It doesn't interest me much. I rarely watch TV except BBC
World News. I do however listen to a great deal of music.
I notice you never post a word about music. Hmm!

There is no 'formal training' in music recording at the
BBC

You jest:-) One of my oldest BBC friends was a
music recording engineer who taught many courses
at the BBC. We met at a recording of "BBC Jazz Club"
at the old Paris Cinema in Regent Street. I remember
it well, Ronnie Scott and Tubby Hayes were played
together. But he probably worked in radio only.
I don't know.

or any other TV company I know about, except as part of general
training. As to you knowing 'people who worked with me at Thames' they
seem to be keeping very quiet about this. I wonder why?

You told me earlier you knew the two people to
whom I refer. I have mentioned their names to
you previously, and yours to them. I have not had
a Christmas card from either of them for a year or
two. They are both probably now up in the great
TV studio in the sky. But we could hold a séance
if you like:-)

Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:
Be interesting to know who can command a higher fee - a dubbing
mixer on a top movie or a recording engineer on a hit pop
recording. I'd guess the former.


Few dubbing jobs are "top movies".

Few hit records made either these days. Tiny sales compared to once.

Classical and jazz productions are my genre. A great deal of the
material is not for commercial release, but for academy and foundation
use.

I thought you were making a general comment about the likely remuneration
of dubbing mixers versus recording engineers at the top end? You seem to
invariably bring personal things into every discussion.

So-called "hit-records" are of purely passing interest. I enjoy
listening to them in the way the coroner is interested in performing a
post-mortem:-) I like to find out how the music has been put together,
"What makes it tick" as they say. Music is constantly evolving.

Thought you've said before you enjoyed all types of music? Perhaps just
another of your foibles.


Dolby surround mixes for corporate programmes are fun,

Oh - you work on 'corporates'? Never mind. Just don't mention it on
your CV.

Haven't done any corporate work for a while. But clients like Nokia,
Ericsson, Volvo, and Sony Classical look fine on the CV. They usually
write a personalletter of thanks also for a high-class job. These are
nice to keep. I am sure you get them as well?

Of course. But too many to bother keeping. Thanking people in my industry
is standard practice. I'm surprised you find it worthy of comment.


but TV has both technical and budget restrictions.

Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would not need to ask.
Perhaps they are better classed as artistic restrictions, in the "No
point in doing that, because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

No-one? Perhaps you need to get yourself a decent receiver. Many many
people have very good AV systems these days. But perhaps that revolution
has passed you by as so much else.

And the budget for most corporates is tiny - as well as being a one
off which prevents the spreading of costs as in a series.

Good corporate clients are not too budget conscious. Quality is what
they are concerned with.

So you say. Making an example the norm. Corporates like any productions
can have any sort of budget.


And, as one of my favourite producers is fond of saying "God is in
the detail" :-)

And he produces which movies?´

He is a record producer, with a meticulous ear.

So knows about the same about TV and film production as you?

I'm quite used to 'inter-branch rivalry' in the sound field - 'my dad's
bigger than your dad' sort of thing - but you certainly make an art form
out of it.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valerian Vinyl
 

..
"RdM" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" in
. saunalahti.fi:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would
not need to ask. Perhaps they are better classed as
artistic restrictions, in the "No point in doing that,
because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

I don't understand that! I'm sure I'm not alone in using my "TV" [1]
merely
as a monitor off my Nicam stereo "hi-fi" VCR, and running the sound
through a
Dolby Prologic (or quality stereo, depending on the room) amp [2], as I
have
for at least the last 15 years ... I haven't even bothered with 5.1+ etc.
yet,
but I certainly appreciate good sound on programmes where it exists!



It is not to do with the sound being good. Of course
the sound must be good:-))

Film sound editors are accustomed to laying
down multiple layered tracks of ambience for example.
Perhaps the barely perceptible rumble of traffic,
a passing train far away, a birdsong -
that kind of thing. These are all set well below the
ambience of the room in an internal shot.

The chances are they will not be heard during a normal
living room viewing, and so, in the limited time that is
available (the bean counters set the budget) they are
left for something much more important - dialogue,
music editing etc etc.

Sound sync is the bean counter's friend. The dialogue
comes complete with ambience:-)

Cheers
Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article ,
RdM wrote:
"Iain Churches" in
. saunalahti.fi:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would
not need to ask. Perhaps they are better classed as
artistic restrictions, in the "No point in doing that,
because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

I don't understand that! I'm sure I'm not alone in using my "TV" [1]
merely as a monitor off my Nicam stereo "hi-fi" VCR, and running the
sound through a Dolby Prologic (or quality stereo, depending on the
room) amp [2], as I have for at least the last 15 years ... I haven't
even bothered with 5.1+ etc. yet, but I certainly appreciate good sound
on programmes where it exists!

Absolutely. I haven't used the internal amp/speaker on my 'main' TV setup
since I got my first colour set in approx '70. It had dreadful internal
sound like most of the era, so ignoring the warranty implications modified
it to provide a line output - not so simple a task in those days of live
chassis. Those who criticise TV sound do so without realising the faults
are often with their own receiver. The chain used from source to
transmitter is near enough the same as any decent radio one.

Of course the quality of the material played over that chain varies
enormously. But then so does much else on any medium.

RdM

The previous post:

Few dubbing jobs are "top movies". Dolby surround mixes for
corporate programmes are fun, but TV has both technical
and budget restrictions. (Before you ask - there is little point
building up complex and subtle layers of ambience and low
level FX which no one will ever hear from TV)

[1] I don't even have a working "TV". Only monitors.
[2] Amplifier, not just some cheap "receiver"!

Iain is rather snobbish about TV sound. Perhaps he wanted a job in it and
was rejected.

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

I thought you were making a general comment about the likely remuneration
of dubbing mixers versus recording engineers at the top end? You seem to
invariably bring personal things into every discussion.

Like you, I can only speculate on what dubbing mixers might earn on feature
films. I am on much firmer ground in an area of the industry with which I
am familiar.

So-called "hit-records" are of purely passing interest. I enjoy
listening to them in the way the coroner is interested in performing a
post-mortem:-) I like to find out how the music has been put together,
"What makes it tick" as they say. Music is constantly evolving.

Thought you've said before you enjoyed all types of music? Perhaps just
another of your foibles.

Oh I do. I am currently listening to some 18th century
Polish music. Wonderful.

What is your choice of music?

Letters of appreciation.
Of course. But too many to bother keeping.

I have one from Sir Arthur Bliss, and another
hand-written from Duke Ellington. I bet even you
would not have thrown those away:-)) LOL.

Thanking people in my industry
is standard practice. I'm surprised you find it worthy of comment.

You were the one who mentioned CVs.

No-one? Perhaps you need to get yourself a decent receiver. Many many
people have very good AV systems these days. But perhaps that revolution
has passed you by as so much else.

Good corporate clients are not too budget conscious. Quality is what
they are concerned with.

So you say. Making an example the norm. Corporates like any productions
can have any sort of budget.

The answer to that is simple. You don't have to get
involved in under-funded projects.


He is a record producer, with a meticulous ear.

So knows about the same about TV and film production as you?

The man is an academic - an authority on Mozart.
I have no idea what he knows about TV or film.

I'm quite used to 'inter-branch rivalry' in the sound field - 'my dad's
bigger than your dad' sort of thing - but you certainly make an art form
out of it.

I doubt that you seriously rival anyone, Dave.

There used to be a driver at Decca, who came
from Granada TV. He made us all laugh when he said,
"I lost my driving licence when working for TV, so they
gave me an easier job, "sound recordist"

Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

But perhaps you'd answer my question about the relevance of LTC/VITC
when dealing with an analogue audio recorder? Even if 'the EBU' think
there is?

I have done that twice. The term LTC is used on EBU documentation
because it describes the actual code, not the governing body.

I'm still not sure what 'EBU documentation' is. Perhaps the companies you
work for buy it in because they can't afford to print their own.

Available in every language usd in the EBU member
countries - even Estonian:-) It is supplied specifically to
ensure standardisation, so that members *do not*
print their own versions of what they think is required.

And I've
never seem it on the few multi-track tapes I've had to deal with which
originated in Europe.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with them because they require
the signature of somone higher up the ladder, usually a head
of department or sound supervisor who takes responsibility.

Ah right. In my case it would be the store man in the tape library where
all such things were delivered to. Were you a store man in such a facility
since you are so familiar with the paperwork?

It is a smiliar situation when you sign over material to
Sky Broadcasting or any other satelite company.
You really put your head on the block.

Which programmes have you 'signed over to Sky Broadcasting' Iain? Thought
you were a recording engineer?

As we have discussed before, some companies
ask for audio to be offset to picture!! Yours is not
to reason why. If you do not meet their instructions
to the letter, (or the frame:-) your client will forfeit
(but still have to pay for) his transmission slot.

You'd have to be specific. Most UK broadcasters insist on the finished
programme being supplied on DigiBeta which like all such formats has
married picture and sound. Is this something else you've overheard in the
bar and not quite understood?


I sort of gathered that. What does surprise me is that 'we' obviously
have rather higher technical standards than you - since you seem to
think it an OK idea to put the principle track on an adjacent one to
the code.

Should I write in capital letters for you? Music multi-tracks
rarely if ever have LTC in music recording.

Right. Explains your lack of understanding of it. Why not just say so
instead of this constant wriggling?

The fad of sending TC guide tracks around the world for strings, brass,
vocals etc to be added in LA, Chicago, London and Wigan, faded out years
ago.

Even the most lowly dubbing suite I've worked in for TV with its
'technical and budget restrictions' - remember those words? - wouldn't
dream of mixing time code and audio on the same jackfield.

Perhaps NDR one of Germany's largest broadcasters, should
avail themselves of your expertise and superior knowledge:-)
They are currently fitting out a brand new music studio with a
large-format Lewo console. Both TC and house sync are
brought up on the jackfield just as I have described.

Then they're very foolish - and I don't believe you.

Bitte. Seis! Herr Plowman is coming to show us how it should
be done. LOL.

I wonder about your so called music recording experience since you
clearly don't know much about the upper end of analogue tape recorders
if you've not come across a multi-track designed for use with time
code. And sing the praises of Levers Rich.

Leevers Rich, Dave. Double "ee". The man's name was Norman Leevers.
I like it for sentimental reasons. The one I own personally has been an
interesting renovation project. It now performs as well as the day it
was made, and fully meets both the IEC and NAB specs.

I'm sure it does. Contempory professional machines exceeded those, though.


But you really are the most pretentious snob, Iain. And know little
about television.

It doesn't interest me much. I rarely watch TV except BBC
World News. I do however listen to a great deal of music.
I notice you never post a word about music. Hmm!

What was I saying about being a snob?

There is no 'formal training' in music recording at the
BBC

You jest:-) One of my oldest BBC friends was a
music recording engineer who taught many courses
at the BBC. We met at a recording of "BBC Jazz Club"
at the old Paris Cinema in Regent Street. I remember
it well, Ronnie Scott and Tubby Hayes were played
together. But he probably worked in radio only.
I don't know.

You're right - you don't know. I was referring to TV which is my trade. I
don't profess to be an expert about all the branches of the profession.
Something perhaps you should think about.

or any other TV company I know about, except as part of general
training. As to you knowing 'people who worked with me at Thames' they
seem to be keeping very quiet about this. I wonder why?

You told me earlier you knew the two people to
whom I refer. I have mentioned their names to
you previously, and yours to them. I have not had
a Christmas card from either of them for a year or
two. They are both probably now up in the great
TV studio in the sky. But we could hold a séance
if you like:-)

You mentioned a BBC ETD lecturer, certainly. But not any colleague at
Thames. Of course it was a fairly large place.

I suppose it's nice to be so well known. I've never met anyone who's heard
of you. Other than through your posts on here.

--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:
Sound sync is the bean counter's friend. The dialogue
comes complete with ambience:-)

I presume you mean 'sync sound'? Ie actors actually acting?

Only some twisted freak would prefer post sync'd dialogue under any
circumstances where there is a choice.

Just for your information Iain - it is more costly to obtain good location
sound than to post sync it in many cases. The bean counters might be
responsible for many reduced standards - but this isn't one of them.

--
*Born free...Taxed to death.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.