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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Wipe your chin, Plowie - you're drooling....

Not at all. I've done my fair share of travelling work wise and prefer to
come home at night. Of course Iain may well prefer an hotel to his
'home'.
and spending all his spare time with his work colleagues.

I have a home in a couple of the locations, so
don't always need to stay in a hotel.

I don't need to chase after ever single project either
at a flat take-it-or-leave it TV fee. The Spring and
Autumn seasons are busy.

I take eight to ten weeks holiday during the summer, and six
at Christmas. So I enjoy a high living standard with plenty
of leasure time also.

It's his choice

Yes, you are right, it is my choice.


Hang on, you don't sound so 'bitter' to me? Could it be that Plowie's got it
all wrong?

(Again....)

:-)

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Music on live TV shows often leaves much to be desired.
Look at the drummers sitting behind plexi screens and the mics
clipped to music stands for the strings.

I've had a thought about this. It is, of course, a stupid placement
because apart from being in a poor place for the instrument, it would also
pick up the close sound of the dots being turned. So would never ever be
even attempted.

So what you - or one of your acolytes who all seem to have an opinion
about how live TV sound should be while never having worked it - probably
saw was the mics clipped to the stands waiting to be fitted to the bridge,
a common placement where the maximum separation is needed and the section
can't be screened off satisfactorily. Not by any means an ideal placement
- but even an approximate of a strings sound can be better than none.

Of course in your ideal world of cosy recording studios you'd simply put
them in a different room - or record them on a different day from the
rest. Which might be difficult in a live situation...

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Music on live TV shows often leaves much to be desired.
Look at the drummers sitting behind plexi screens and the mics
clipped to music stands for the strings.

I've had a thought about this. It is, of course, a stupid placement
because apart from being in a poor place for the instrument, it would also
pick up the close sound of the dots being turned. So would never ever be
even attempted.

Plausible argument- no cigar:-)
A string part for a 3 min piece (something that might be
played on a popular TV show like Parkinson for exanple)
is typically a single page, or a double open page at most,
with so many bars of rest, repeats and segno marks that
turning is propably not required.


So what you - or one of your acolytes who all seem to have an opinion
about how live TV sound should be while never having worked it - probably
saw was the mics clipped to the stands waiting to be fitted to the bridge,
a common placement where the maximum separation is needed and the section
can't be screened off satisfactorily.

Come on Dave you must have seen this, even on the BBC
who generally do things better than most. Pencil mics
clipped to the top left hand edge of the music stand for
each pair of players. (String sections are pretty small
on TV)

It doesn't seem likely that any string player would be allowed to clip
a mic to the bridge of his instrument during a transmission. Besides
there could not be a worse place. Even worse than the edge of the
music stand. Also I wonder if violin players would be willing to clip
anything to what may well be a 200 year old instrument?


Not by any means an ideal placement
- but even an approximate of a strings sound can be better than none.

Cold comfort.

Of course in your ideal world of cosy recording studios you'd simply put
them in a different room - or record them on a different day from the
rest. Which might be difficult in a live situation...

For good sound, layout is critical. You can use the
acoustics properties and the geometry of the studio,
together with the directional characteristics of the
microphones you select to good effect.

The problem here is that, even without acoustic
screens, the practical layout for good sound is
in conflict with what the producer and camera
crew regard as visually pleasing. So, sound
being the poor relation it is, suffers.

A bsic rule of thumb, taught to every single
student of recording arts: When recording a brass
section, never sit the trumpets and trombones behind
the saxophones/woodwind. Take a look at any TV
show, you will see that they are invariable sitting in
that order.

Iain

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Just been drinking coffee and re-reading your post with a colleague.

The standard of audio on TV is severely hampered by visual-based
decisions of directors and cameramen, Sound is very much the poor
relation. Anyone can hear that.

Sounds like your colleague is as bitter as you. Another TV reject?

He is a digital console service engineer. He would rather read
Samuel Becket than watch TV.

But you've already said you rarely watch TV apart from the BBC world news
so if that's what you're basing your views on I'm not surprised.

I used to enjoy Parkinson, and especially the Laurie Holloway
orchestra. The playing was good, the sound often pretty shoddy.


Of course
I'd like to see you do better under the those conditions...

That's why I never even considered TV sound.

I take it Iain that you have no visual appreciation - so would like a
'live music TV show' to be made in a recording studio with everything
nicely screened off so you get your 'good' sound? Or might that be a
teensy bit boring to watch?

Oh I can see how and why this situation has arisen.
It's a question of priorities. Sound is very much the poor
relation in TV. It is sometimes might be better to have
Rosie Treacher who used to play the piano for the
silent films at Hammersmith Odeon.

BTW, this clipping mics on stands thing must be local to you. I've never
seen it done - or can understand why it would be. Or is it your preferred
method under such circumstances?

Again a lapse of memory on your part, Dave?
We have discussed it previously, and you did not find it
unfamiliar then

Iain

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Iain is rather snobbish about TV sound. Perhaps he wanted a job in it and
was rejected.

Now you have got me thinking. I didn't even
consider TV sound.

I come from a military family. I passed the
Welbeck entrance exam, so Sandhurst could
have been the next move. I might have enjoyed
being a subaltern in the King's Own Herbaceous
Borderers:-)

My first career choice was professional
musician, but I wanted to eat regularly.

So a career on the other side of the control
room window seemed more attractive.

I have never regretted my choice.

Iain

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In article , David Looser
scribeth thus
"RdM" wrote in message
.. .
"Iain Churches" in
. saunalahti.fi:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
Pray tell what 'technical' restrictions apply to TV compared to the
corporates you obviously know about?

I did just that in my previous post, so that you would
not need to ask. Perhaps they are better classed as
artistic restrictions, in the "No point in doing that,
because no-one is gonna hear it on TV" class:-)

I don't understand that! I'm sure I'm not alone in using my "TV" [1]
merely
as a monitor off my Nicam stereo "hi-fi" VCR, and running the sound
through a
Dolby Prologic (or quality stereo, depending on the room) amp [2], as I
have
for at least the last 15 years ... I haven't even bothered with 5.1+ etc.
yet,
but I certainly appreciate good sound on programmes where it exists!


No you are not alone. I first piped TV sound through a Hi-Fi system in the
early 1970s. In those days TV sets required extensive modification to
provide a high-quality line-level audio feed, but it was worth the effort.

David.



Indeed!, I was very surprised on just how good it was, AM and 405 line
TV let alone the later FM 625 which used to buzz well, intercarrier buzz

Was a common fault!..
--
Tony Sayer

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article i,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Music on live TV shows often leaves much to be desired.
Look at the drummers sitting behind plexi screens and the mics
clipped to music stands for the strings.

I've had a thought about this. It is, of course, a stupid placement
because apart from being in a poor place for the instrument, it would
also pick up the close sound of the dots being turned. So would never
ever be even attempted.

Plausible argument- no cigar:-)
A string part for a 3 min piece (something that might be
played on a popular TV show like Parkinson for exanple)
is typically a single page, or a double open page at most,
with so many bars of rest, repeats and segno marks that
turning is propably not required.

Might be, might not be. But people tend to have a favourite position for
mics and having one which depends on variable to not be a disaster ain't
favourite given unlike your sort of work you can't do take upon take for a
whim.


So what you - or one of your acolytes who all seem to have an opinion
about how live TV sound should be while never having worked it - probably
saw was the mics clipped to the stands waiting to be fitted to the bridge,
a common placement where the maximum separation is needed and the section
can't be screened off satisfactorily.

Come on Dave you must have seen this, even on the BBC
who generally do things better than most. Pencil mics
clipped to the top left hand edge of the music stand for
each pair of players. (String sections are pretty small
on TV)

No.

It doesn't seem likely that any string player would be allowed to clip
a mic to the bridge of his instrument during a transmission.

Unlike much mic setting this is one where the player will usually do it
him/herself.

Besides there could not be a worse place.

Explained earlier.
Even worse than the edge of the
music stand.

Not so if separation is the main goal.

Also I wonder if violin players would be willing to clip
anything to what may well be a 200 year old instrument?

Special clips are available for this express purpose. You can hire in a
set of mikes and specify them if you don't own them. No more damaging than
a mute. But I doubt the gipsies would bring along their Strads for this
sort of gig anyway.


Not by any means an ideal placement
- but even an approximate of a strings sound can be better than none.

Cold comfort.

Of course in your ideal world of cosy recording studios you'd simply
put them in a different room - or record them on a different day from
the rest. Which might be difficult in a live situation...

For good sound, layout is critical. You can use the
acoustics properties and the geometry of the studio,
together with the directional characteristics of the
microphones you select to good effect.

The problem here is that, even without acoustic
screens, the practical layout for good sound is
in conflict with what the producer and camera
crew regard as visually pleasing. So, sound
being the poor relation it is, suffers.

A bsic rule of thumb, taught to every single
student of recording arts: When recording a brass
section, never sit the trumpets and trombones behind
the saxophones/woodwind. Take a look at any TV
show, you will see that they are invariable sitting in
that order.

As they are on any stage big band. WW are always at the front. Sounds like
you always want to 'improve' on nature?

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave. It has just been pointed out to me that despite
your numerous posts in this thread, you have not once
refererred to the actual topic, which was a new vinyl
release "Ray Sings, Basie Swings"

Have you listened to this remarkable double album?
The vocals were liften from concerts in London and
Berlin in the early 1970s. The orchestra was recorded
in 2006. Have you stopped to consider how this may
have been done.

You can bet your best Rycote wind-shield it had
nothing to do with LTC :-)

Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Hang on, you don't sound so 'bitter' to me? Could it be that Plowie's got
it all wrong?

(Again....)

:-)


Oh it's a tough life, Keith, don't make any mistake
about that. Tougher than any mere mortal should
be expected to endure.

I am still on Christmas/New Year vacation, sitting
at this moment in my favourite chair, by a roaring
log fire.

I have the laptop poised on one knee, and a
tray with a cup of freshly ground coffee and a
huge slice of home-made cheesecake with
cherries on the other. How long can I endure
this kind of extreme punishment? :-)))

Cheers
Iain

Valerian Vinyl
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
No you are not alone. I first piped TV sound through a Hi-Fi system in
the early 1970s. In those days TV sets required extensive modification
to provide a high-quality line-level audio feed, but it was worth the
effort.

David.

Indeed!, I was very surprised on just how good it was, AM and 405 line
TV let alone the later FM 625 which used to buzz well, intercarrier buzz

TV set makers in those days didn't give much care to the audio circuit
design. Single ended valve output with a transformer the size of a golf
ball and the cheapest single cone speaker they could source. And that was
on the expensive sets. On my Philips we modified the black level clamp
which was causing a deal of the inter carrier buzz. Don't know the ins and
outs - a vision engineer pal worked out the mod.

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.