RIP John Michell
 

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:00:53 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

Were those the turntables that didn't have a platter? Balanced the
lp on half-a-dozen pillars?

That was a very old design from the Transcriptors days, the modern
GyroDec looks equally spectacular, but is a more conventional design.

What was the thinking behind that?

Some argued that the record should be allowed to flex naturally.

Didn't other designers clamp the
vinyl to a massive platter?

As do the current Michell turntables.

Oh right. Snake-oil.
I suspected as much when I used to read Hi-fi magazines (at college c.
1970)

RIP John Michell
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:00:22 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:00:53 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

Were those the turntables that didn't have a platter? Balanced the
lp on half-a-dozen pillars?

That was a very old design from the Transcriptors days, the modern
GyroDec looks equally spectacular, but is a more conventional design.

What was the thinking behind that?

Some argued that the record should be allowed to flex naturally.

Didn't other designers clamp the
vinyl to a massive platter?

As do the current Michell turntables.

Oh right. Snake-oil.

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

I suspected as much when I used to read Hi-fi magazines (at college c.
1970)

What, you can read? :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:00:22 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:00:53 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

Were those the turntables that didn't have a platter? Balanced the
lp on half-a-dozen pillars?

That was a very old design from the Transcriptors days, the modern
GyroDec looks equally spectacular, but is a more conventional design.

What was the thinking behind that?

Some argued that the record should be allowed to flex naturally.

Didn't other designers clamp the
vinyl to a massive platter?

As do the current Michell turntables.

Oh right. Snake-oil.

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

I suspected as much when I used to read Hi-fi magazines (at college c.
1970)

What, you can read? :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Or am I missing something?

RIP John Michell
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Or am I missing something?

RIP John Michell
 

In article , Laurence Payne
wrote:

: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
: Pinkerton) wrote:
:
: No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
: experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
: and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
: Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.
:
: So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
: point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
: given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
: were sellable?
:
: Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
: Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.
:
: This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
: engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
: device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
: product?
:
: Or am I missing something?

Among other things, timing, systems thinking, and experience with the unit
itself:
1) it was better than many many other products of its time,
2) it is possible to make a product that has a flaw that still is superior
overall, and,
3) before speaking ill of the dead, one should have a factual basis, i.e,
actually have used the turntable.

The problems attributed to the point supports were not dramatically audible
in systems of the day. Airborne vibration usually was not audible perhaps
because of the lossy damping effect of the soft pods or because the dust
cover was more solid than was typical or because we had not yet been
educated by Ivor to pay attention to it. Most concerns about the
suspension, which were raised years later, had to do with the idea that,
absent the damping a mat provides, stylus-induced vibrations (needle-talk)
would travel to the center and outer edge of the record and would then be
reflected back to the stylus.

Perhaps in response to this, Michell was one of the first to go with a
clamp (and his is quite good), and also made a mat (or really an
overplatter) -- this actually two platters of glass bonded together to damp
them -- it sat on the pods, and sounded very good.

It was easy to be impressed with John Michell perhaps because he was so
unshowman-like -- a very good sencere engineer who always could explain the
thinking behind what he did, not arrogantly, but as one sensible person to
another.

RIP John Michell
 

In article , Laurence Payne
wrote:

: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
: Pinkerton) wrote:
:
: No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
: experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
: and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
: Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.
:
: So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
: point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
: given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
: were sellable?
:
: Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
: Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.
:
: This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
: engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
: device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
: product?
:
: Or am I missing something?

Among other things, timing, systems thinking, and experience with the unit
itself:
1) it was better than many many other products of its time,
2) it is possible to make a product that has a flaw that still is superior
overall, and,
3) before speaking ill of the dead, one should have a factual basis, i.e,
actually have used the turntable.

The problems attributed to the point supports were not dramatically audible
in systems of the day. Airborne vibration usually was not audible perhaps
because of the lossy damping effect of the soft pods or because the dust
cover was more solid than was typical or because we had not yet been
educated by Ivor to pay attention to it. Most concerns about the
suspension, which were raised years later, had to do with the idea that,
absent the damping a mat provides, stylus-induced vibrations (needle-talk)
would travel to the center and outer edge of the record and would then be
reflected back to the stylus.

Perhaps in response to this, Michell was one of the first to go with a
clamp (and his is quite good), and also made a mat (or really an
overplatter) -- this actually two platters of glass bonded together to damp
them -- it sat on the pods, and sounded very good.

It was easy to be impressed with John Michell perhaps because he was so
unshowman-like -- a very good sencere engineer who always could explain the
thinking behind what he did, not arrogantly, but as one sensible person to
another.

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:55:03 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.

See the post by 'Design' for a fuller explanation.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:55:03 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.

See the post by 'Design' for a fuller explanation.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

You appear to be impressed by the man as an engineer, who put into production a
device that would have sounded WORSE than the traditional product? Or am I
missing something?

Creativity - in one word. Very valuable quality. Plainly John had it.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.