RIP John Michell
 

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....


I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

There you go Keith, you have been "outed", I never though of you as a
floor walker, just goes to show how wrong I was :-)

Ducks and runs for cover

--
Nick

RIP John Michell
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

There you go Keith, you have been "outed", I never though of you as a
floor walker, just goes to show how wrong I was :-)

Ducks and runs for cover



Oooh! Suits you sir! - Suits you!

:-)

RIP John Michell
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

There you go Keith, you have been "outed", I never though of you as a
floor walker, just goes to show how wrong I was :-)

Ducks and runs for cover



Oooh! Suits you sir! - Suits you!

:-)

RIP John Michell
 

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact
that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The
truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified.
One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for
all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not
you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy
(see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi?


Nawp! - Not even close! (Coronation Programme Salesman actually.... :-)


And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?


Missing the point. If *someone* gets a lift off them. then they *are*
useful! (Albeit not to me or to you, it seems.)


Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....


Hmmm, if misleading claims really *were* illegal we'd see no ads for
shampoo, oven cleaners, frozen pizzas, there would be no pictures of Bigmacs
or Woppers. The word 'free' would be banned from the English language,
telephone 'surveys' would be banned etc. etc.

(However, take it from me - *don't* double-dose on the penile enlargement
pills! I did and now I'm in a nightmare of litigation with the local
Planning Department.....)

RIP John Michell
 

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact
that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The
truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified.
One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for
all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not
you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy
(see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi?


Nawp! - Not even close! (Coronation Programme Salesman actually.... :-)


And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?


Missing the point. If *someone* gets a lift off them. then they *are*
useful! (Albeit not to me or to you, it seems.)


Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....


Hmmm, if misleading claims really *were* illegal we'd see no ads for
shampoo, oven cleaners, frozen pizzas, there would be no pictures of Bigmacs
or Woppers. The word 'free' would be banned from the English language,
telephone 'surveys' would be banned etc. etc.

(However, take it from me - *don't* double-dose on the penile enlargement
pills! I did and now I'm in a nightmare of litigation with the local
Planning Department.....)

RIP John Michell
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact
that the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people
happily spend their money on things *you* might consider poor value
for money.

That's OUR argument - that the placebo effect cannot be discounted.

The truth is that if it 'works for them' then their
purchase is fully justified.

Any number of charlatans have made this argument in court. In general the
courts decide that fraud is fraud.

One of the most important aspects of
being human is that we have freedom of choice (to a greater or lesser
degree, but slowly getting better for all..) and that any reduction
of choice has to be a Bad Thing.

Yup, there's no good reason to investigate and publicize the fact when some
products are ineffective. People should be forced to spend their own money
to find that out for themselves.

Whether or not you (or I, come to
that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti Stones is
not the point.

The important question is whether or not they are effective and reasonable.

The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better
(?) place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had
never existed), IMO.....

Yup, there's no good reason to investigate and publicize the fact when some
products are ineffective. People should be forced to spend their own money
to find that out for themselves.

RIP John Michell
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact
that the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people
happily spend their money on things *you* might consider poor value
for money.

That's OUR argument - that the placebo effect cannot be discounted.

The truth is that if it 'works for them' then their
purchase is fully justified.

Any number of charlatans have made this argument in court. In general the
courts decide that fraud is fraud.

One of the most important aspects of
being human is that we have freedom of choice (to a greater or lesser
degree, but slowly getting better for all..) and that any reduction
of choice has to be a Bad Thing.

Yup, there's no good reason to investigate and publicize the fact when some
products are ineffective. People should be forced to spend their own money
to find that out for themselves.

Whether or not you (or I, come to
that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti Stones is
not the point.

The important question is whether or not they are effective and reasonable.

The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better
(?) place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had
never existed), IMO.....

Yup, there's no good reason to investigate and publicize the fact when some
products are ineffective. People should be forced to spend their own money
to find that out for themselves.

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:26:30 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:13:52 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.

Leaving aside the "Lady Diana" factor for the time being ;-)

Que?

John Michell wasn't 'removed' by MI6, was he?

What was the high-end competition at that time? Was Linn going yet?

Yes, the Transciptors Hydraulic table and Fluid arm were around in the
mid '70s, when the Linn was gaining popularity with the gullible.

Maybe the Garrard 301?

Long superceded by the 401.

You were there and using this stuff?

Yes, although I actually used a TD 125-II at that time.

DID
the Michell point-support sound different/better?

Different, certainly, as to *better*, that's always arguable with
vinyl! :-)

If you listened to
it today, would you class its differences to a full-support platter as
good or bad?

You could of course check this pretty quickly by using Michell's own
full-contact platter, thereby having only one variable. One might
reasonably expect that the modern Orbe is a generally better table.

I was toying with hi-fi at that time, without the resources to buy
expensive gear.

Me, too..............

Leaving platters aside for a moment, this was the
era of ultra-low-mass tonearms and headshells.

Yes, such was another now-discarded theory...............

Logic told me that
mass round the cartridge would be a good thing, providing a solid
reference point.

Bad logic, actually, but never mind! :-)

So I filled my headshell with Plasticine. It
sounded better to me. But all the hi-fi comics said this was wrong!

Likely the damping effect of the Plasrticene was more important than
the mass.

This may have been when I lost interest in hi-fi :-)

Better to lose interest in the comics.......
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:26:30 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:13:52 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.

Leaving aside the "Lady Diana" factor for the time being ;-)

Que?

John Michell wasn't 'removed' by MI6, was he?

What was the high-end competition at that time? Was Linn going yet?

Yes, the Transciptors Hydraulic table and Fluid arm were around in the
mid '70s, when the Linn was gaining popularity with the gullible.

Maybe the Garrard 301?

Long superceded by the 401.

You were there and using this stuff?

Yes, although I actually used a TD 125-II at that time.

DID
the Michell point-support sound different/better?

Different, certainly, as to *better*, that's always arguable with
vinyl! :-)

If you listened to
it today, would you class its differences to a full-support platter as
good or bad?

You could of course check this pretty quickly by using Michell's own
full-contact platter, thereby having only one variable. One might
reasonably expect that the modern Orbe is a generally better table.

I was toying with hi-fi at that time, without the resources to buy
expensive gear.

Me, too..............

Leaving platters aside for a moment, this was the
era of ultra-low-mass tonearms and headshells.

Yes, such was another now-discarded theory...............

Logic told me that
mass round the cartridge would be a good thing, providing a solid
reference point.

Bad logic, actually, but never mind! :-)

So I filled my headshell with Plasticine. It
sounded better to me. But all the hi-fi comics said this was wrong!

Likely the damping effect of the Plasrticene was more important than
the mass.

This may have been when I lost interest in hi-fi :-)

Better to lose interest in the comics.......
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:41:53 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

Leaving platters aside for a moment, this was the
era of ultra-low-mass tonearms and headshells.

Yes, such was another now-discarded theory...............

Logic told me that
mass round the cartridge would be a good thing, providing a solid
reference point.

Bad logic, actually, but never mind! :-)

No, let's mind! I never got a good answer to this one. You say
low-mass arms and headshells are a "now-discarded theory", but my
reason for adding mass was a wrong one? Fair enough. Why?

So I filled my headshell with Plasticine. It
sounded better to me. But all the hi-fi comics said this was wrong!

Likely the damping effect of the Plasrticene was more important than
the mass.

This may have been when I lost interest in hi-fi :-)

Better to lose interest in the comics.......

That's what I meant really. I was at the time a music student. Now a
professional musician. Very interested in audio engineering, but the
hi-fi magazines seem to inhabit an alternative universe :-)