RIP John Michell
 

You appear to be impressed by the man as an engineer, who put into production a
device that would have sounded WORSE than the traditional product? Or am I
missing something?

Creativity - in one word. Very valuable quality. Plainly John had it.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

RIP John Michell
 

In article ,
Andy Evans wrote:
You appear to be impressed by the man as an engineer, who put into
production a device that would have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product? Or am I missing something?

The Transcriptors design sounded pretty good if you didn't have any
speakers in the room or kept them at low level. So ok for transcription ;-)

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

RIP John Michell
 

In article ,
Andy Evans wrote:
You appear to be impressed by the man as an engineer, who put into
production a device that would have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product? Or am I missing something?

The Transcriptors design sounded pretty good if you didn't have any
speakers in the room or kept them at low level. So ok for transcription ;-)

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:13:52 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.


Leaving aside the "Lady Diana" factor for the time being ;-)

What was the high-end competition at that time? Was Linn going yet?
Maybe the Garrard 301? You were there and using this stuff? DID
the Michell point-support sound different/better? If you listened to
it today, would you class its differences to a full-support platter as
good or bad?

I was toying with hi-fi at that time, without the resources to buy
expensive gear. Leaving platters aside for a moment, this was the
era of ultra-low-mass tonearms and headshells. Logic told me that
mass round the cartridge would be a good thing, providing a solid
reference point. So I filled my headshell with Plasticine. It
sounded better to me. But all the hi-fi comics said this was wrong!

This may have been when I lost interest in hi-fi :-)

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:13:52 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Did it? I don't think so. Have you ever used one?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that he produced an excellently engineered
table based on a flawed theory, and more importantly, he discarded
that theory when it proved to be inappropriate, unlike Linn and
Roksan.


Leaving aside the "Lady Diana" factor for the time being ;-)

What was the high-end competition at that time? Was Linn going yet?
Maybe the Garrard 301? You were there and using this stuff? DID
the Michell point-support sound different/better? If you listened to
it today, would you class its differences to a full-support platter as
good or bad?

I was toying with hi-fi at that time, without the resources to buy
expensive gear. Leaving platters aside for a moment, this was the
era of ultra-low-mass tonearms and headshells. Logic told me that
mass round the cartridge would be a good thing, providing a solid
reference point. So I filled my headshell with Plasticine. It
sounded better to me. But all the hi-fi comics said this was wrong!

This may have been when I lost interest in hi-fi :-)

RIP John Michell
 

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Or am I missing something?


I think you are.

Back in the 60s/70s the concepts of 'style' and 'aesthetics' were vastly
different* to those that prevail today.

Back then, the mass education in (and obsession with) 'technology' that we
have seen in the last couple of decades hadn't happened. (Pre - PC, you
see....) A large slice of the population would/did happily sacrifice
function for form and a lot of people (then and now and probably including
me both times) wouldn't know true 'high fidelity' if it kicked them in the
crotch. I'm certain the drop-dead gorgeous looks of the Transcriptors and
early Michell decks would have more than made up for any deficencies in
sound quailty if, indeed, there were any, given the equipment choices of the
day.

The fact that these very pretty (but scary) decks evolved into the current
(allegedly more 'sonically sound') models is testament to the man's inherent
honesty as a designer and credibilty as a 'progressive' manufacturer of high
quality turntables. You don't see many of them up for sale (and none at all
in charity shops....!) - given the thousands that were produced, do we
assume they all made their way to the corporation tip as their owners
realised that had been totally duped and got rid, to replace them with
LP12s, PL12Ds or whatever?

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....


*er, make that a1000% better........

** and make that *VERY* slightly.....

RIP John Michell
 

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:13:17 GMT, (Stewart
Pinkerton) wrote:

No, *never* snake oil with John Michell, just theories overtaken by
experiment and observation, and replaced by better theories (compare
and contrast with say Linn). John was a *real* engineer, as opposed to
Ivor, who is merely a great salesman.

So, are you suggesting he found experimental evidence that his
point-support theory sounded better? Or just that it looked good, and
given a plausible but half-baked theory to back them up, the units
were sellable?

Did the green felt-tip merchant BELIEVE it made a difference? Maybe.
Both sides of the market can be fooled by snake-oil.

This is interesting. You appear to be impressed by the man as an
engineer, despite the fact that he put into production and sold a
device that would actually have sounded WORSE than the traditional
product?

Or am I missing something?


I think you are.

Back in the 60s/70s the concepts of 'style' and 'aesthetics' were vastly
different* to those that prevail today.

Back then, the mass education in (and obsession with) 'technology' that we
have seen in the last couple of decades hadn't happened. (Pre - PC, you
see....) A large slice of the population would/did happily sacrifice
function for form and a lot of people (then and now and probably including
me both times) wouldn't know true 'high fidelity' if it kicked them in the
crotch. I'm certain the drop-dead gorgeous looks of the Transcriptors and
early Michell decks would have more than made up for any deficencies in
sound quailty if, indeed, there were any, given the equipment choices of the
day.

The fact that these very pretty (but scary) decks evolved into the current
(allegedly more 'sonically sound') models is testament to the man's inherent
honesty as a designer and credibilty as a 'progressive' manufacturer of high
quality turntables. You don't see many of them up for sale (and none at all
in charity shops....!) - given the thousands that were produced, do we
assume they all made their way to the corporation tip as their owners
realised that had been totally duped and got rid, to replace them with
LP12s, PL12Ds or whatever?

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....


*er, make that a1000% better........

** and make that *VERY* slightly.....

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

RIP John Michell
 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....

I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

RIP John Michell
 

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


Also:

You continual rantings about 'Snake Oil' constantly overlook the fact that
the Placebo Effect cannot be discounted when other people happily spend
their money on things *you* might consider poor value for money. The truth
is that if it 'works for them' then their purchase is fully justified. One
of the most important aspects of being human is that we have freedom of
choice (to a greater or lesser degree, but slowly getting better for all..)
and that any reduction of choice has to be a Bad Thing. Whether or not you
(or I, come to that) are ever likely to shell out for summat like Shakti
Stones is not the point. The point is that they make some people happy (see
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/DEC01/E...uip3DEC01.html) and their
complete disappearance would make the world a slightly** less better (?)
place (as it would have been, if the above-mentioned decks had never
existed), IMO.....


I'm assuming you sell hi-fi? And are at least honest enough to admit
to yourself that what you're selling is often feel-good-factor, not
anything useful?

Careful though. Quack cures for cancer made some people happy. It's
only a difference of degree. We have laws to prevent mis-selling of
financial products, medicines....

There you go Keith, you have been "outed", I never though of you as a
floor walker, just goes to show how wrong I was :-)

Ducks and runs for cover

--
Nick