"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)


Other than the 'drum n bass' mentioned elsewhere, Lowthers are to die for
for a whole lot more than that!

The trouble is, too many people have an opinion and have never heard them,
or have an opinion based on perhaps a single session with them! Like much
else in life (including every single pair of speakers on the planet) they
take a little getting used to. Another problem with Lowthers and similar
others) is they take as much as three years of normal use to be properly run
in!

(Actually, that's much the same for any speaker - I've too many instances of
people telling me how they regret getting rid of speakers they'd had for
decades and had decided to 'upgrade'!! :-)

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might
PFL a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied. :-)

None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only place
I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many years ago.
Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional. But the
requirements for a pro monitor are very different from domestic use. If it
gets knackered by plugging in a mic etc with the channel faded up that
could be the end of the day. You don't do that at home.

I could say I'm amazed Iain doesn't seem to know this. But then again,
not.

They do have various inbuilt arrangements like switching the
transformer windings and dropping a crowbar triac across the input to
help protect them against minor abuses. However as I once pointed out to
PJW, the early 63s only used a 5Amp triac and the amp I used could
cheerfully drive 30 amps for prolonged periods. So my own amp would
have toasted the triac then attacked the speaker if I'd been unwise
enough to shove up the power.

Iain seems only to have experience of the '57.

I do have form in this as I did once set fire to a 57. 8-]

Above said, I'd certainly avoid overdriving as the result sounds poor
even if the speakers are undamaged. So not for bass drum at
'enthusiastic' levels.

I do wonder just how many can use 'concert' levels at home. Very few I'd
guess.

TBH I've long come to regard the Quads as "the world's largest pair
of headphones" because of the critical sweetspot, placing, etc.
Fortunately, the results when right are excellent, and the sound can
be enjoyed by others sitting elsewhere - if they are less fussy
about imaging.

How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both are so
critical? Unless you're talking about Kitty and his milkman, obviously.

We found when using the ESLs in Decca III that it was necessary for
the producer to sit directly beind the engineer, with the assistant
producer making a third row. Even reaching across the console was
enough to take your head outside the sweet spot.

I sometimes struggle to make sure both of my ears fit inside it! But the
effort is worthwhile in my view. :-)

Fortunately, 'Drum and Bass' 'pop music' isn't one of my interests...

Well, unless you want your ears wrecked, even the '57 will make a very
respectable job of those in the right room.

--
*Prepositions are not words to end sentences with *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Well it has to be listened to loud when recorded to impress the musos
who may well be a bit deaf, and the producer et al has to be impressed
so its not too surprising that a lorra ooomph is required for such
situations.

Plus the audio processing to get that "radio edit" sound;

Now I can't see why for most all classical music why you would need to
monitor at such levels?.............


Unless your a bit hard of hearing in the first place..

Crikey. This is worrying. I agree with you.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
To my ears far less than any cone-and-box speakers I've ever heard.
Measureably lower distortion and resonances over the bulk of the
audible range. I certainly don't notice any colourations when using
them, but I do tend to with cone-and-box ones.

Indeed .. as good as what the Spendors and LS35/A's are here the Quads
are "the" ones for serious listening)..

LS 3/5a were designed by the BBC to be as good as possible a monitor where
space was severely restricted. Like in some applications in an outside
broadcast truck. Etc. Not as the best possible monitor regardless. And as
such they work well for domestic use. Where the same parameters apply.
I've got a pair in the kitchen and they have provided sterling service. As
do this pair in this room where this computer is.

Only someone who compares equipment by price would set them against larger
units.




--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

Is that your main requirement for a domestic setup? Despite having some
1000 watts of power here in my living room I can't get quite the same sort
of levels I hear in at some pop concerts or 'discos'. Luckily.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the
strings. They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which
will add to the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring
adds that colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the
other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar.

I wasn't talking about a 'lead' guitar' I assumed you were talking about
bass guitars. Was I wrong?

So, it is not at all unrerasonable at least for analysis to take the
output direct from the pickup. Often on jazz recordings no amp or mic is
actually used (as I am sure you know, Dave:-)

Might as well use a sampler, Iain. As I'm sure you know, Iain. ;-)

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

Is that your main requirement for a domestic setup?

No.This is the requirement for replay in a control room.
I was referring also to non-amplified instruments.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might
PFL a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only place
I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many years ago.
Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional.


LOL. So a musician is not a professional? Normally pieces of
equipment such as speakers are chosen by a panel of both
engineering and production/artistic staff. I know that at ABC
(Thames studios after 1968), the opinion of the musical
director, Ronnie Aldrich, who was a good friend of mine, was
often sought, and his view highly regarded. Was he the musician
to whom you refer?


But the
requirements for a pro monitor are very different from domestic use. If it
gets knackered by plugging in a mic etc with the channel faded up that
could be the end of the day. You don't do that at home.

I could say I'm amazed Iain doesn't seem to know this. But then again,
not.

I have mentioned this exact point at least twice in this thread.


They do have various inbuilt arrangements like switching the
transformer windings and dropping a crowbar triac across the input to
help protect them against minor abuses. However as I once pointed out to
PJW, the early 63s only used a 5Amp triac and the amp I used could
cheerfully drive 30 amps for prolonged periods. So my own amp would
have toasted the triac then attacked the speaker if I'd been unwise
enough to shove up the power.

Iain seems only to have experience of the '57.

I mentioned sprecifically the 63, the black studio model with handles on
the side, presented to Decca by PW himself. on which several recordings
were made, including the London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion
with Diana Rigg. Please pay attention, Dave:-)

Interestingly, the direct to disc recording engineered by myself, which
Peter Walker commissioned from Decca, and used up until his retirement,
was made using Tannoy Lancaster speakers:-) PW knew we had at least
one pair of ELS63, but did not even suggest their use (as executive
producer he would have been fully entitled to do so)

How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both are so
critical?

Quite often. A musician/artist comes to supper, and brings his/her
recordings along. Preferably you need a sweet spot where three
people can sit comfortably and share the same listrening experience.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the
strings. They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which
will add to the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring
adds that colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the
other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar.

I wasn't talking about a 'lead' guitar' I assumed you were talking about
bass guitars. Was I wrong?

The idea is to hear the sound of the instrument, straight from the pickup
as I stated previously. It's all pretty academic really, as you almost
certainly will not bother to make the comparison I described:-)

Might as well use a sampler, Iain. As I'm sure you know, Iain. ;-)

Err no.
That's what Arny tried to do with his famous French horn snippet..
He fooled no-one except himself.


Iain

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)


Same level at home too;?...

No. I am talk about studio codnditions, and the poor
suitability of the ESL63 in this environment. The players
in a big-band like the two mentioned aove expect power,
impact and a full dynamic from, "ppp" to " sffz" from
seven brass, five saxes, percussion and a rhythm section.
A monitor system in a large control room with perhaps
twenty people listening needs to be able to produce
high SPLs.

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.


How very considerate..


It didn't seem worth "blotting ones copy book" for a pair of
speakers that clearly could not fulfill the requirements of a
studio role.


I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
.. well .. very square..


Their accuracy has never been in doubt. I remember
that Harley Usill, the recording director (producer) of
the Pygmalion recording to which I referred earlier, was
greatly impressed by the "realism" of the reproduction.


Iain