Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the effort
of
buying a CD.


Can't be many of those left these days! ;-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


You probably won't get far with one phone call. If your really feel
that you have been short-changed them some determination in getting
the matter sorted out, is required. I remember I once gave you a
"hot line" telephone number for EMI quality control. Did you ever
follow it up?

Yes. That was the most recent experience that confirmed my previous
conclusions. I phoned the number, only to find that no-one there knew
what I was talking about. Over a period of 2-3 weeks I phoned (and then
emailed) a number of people at EMI. No-one sorted out the problem or
took what I said seriously. The attitude was "if the CD is faulty, get a
replacement" regardless of my pointing out that I *had* tried *four*
replacements and they were all showing the same problem. A production
fault.

To clarify further. IIRC you were saying that the manufactuers would be
wanting to know about my discovering a possible factory fault that affected
many CDs in a batch, and would be happy to replace it themselves rather
than tell me to speak to the retailer. You gave me a phone number to try
this.

I did phone, and was passed around, put onto answerphones, given 'press 7
to get another answerphone', 'try Fred or Bill', etc, etc, for some weeks.
So far as I recall, no-one seemed to have any idea that something might be
done about a possible faulty batch of CDs. No-one was interested in
replacing it from the company itself. All I got was a runaround with
suggestions I return the CD (again) to the retailer. Frankly, the whole
excercise was a waste of my time. I only persisted for some days to try and
see if I could get anywhere because you seemed certain I would.

By contrast the retailer were sympathetic and helpful - but could only keep
sending me 'new' copies that had the same problem.

Note though that I only mention EMI here as they were the specific example
I tried at your suggestion. I have no reason to think they are poorer than
other big music companies. Although I would suspect that some of the small
specialists would be rather better. In practice, though, this generally
doesn't matter with classical CDs as I find that almost all CDs play fine
with no sign of factory faults. This is true for EMI just as for other
companies. For me, this is the big contrast with the old days of LPs.

I did report this to you at the time IIRC so I am surprised that you seem
to have forgotten. If you hadn't asked again I would not have mentioned it
at length.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the
effort of buying a CD.


Can't be many of those left these days! ;-)

Dunno as I don't have uptodate figures. But I suspect there may be more
buyers of CDs than LPs at present. :-)

Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret for
some reason.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the
effort of buying a CD.


Can't be many of those left these days! ;-)

Dunno as I don't have uptodate figures. But I suspect there may be more
buyers of CDs than LPs at present. :-)

Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret for
some reason.


My guess is that the last of the *CD buyers* will be those of the 'classical
persuasion' with the more modern stuff and all 'pop' going the way of the
'Net, iPod, cellphone and whatever else they come up with!

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message

My constant plea to sound professionals is "turn it down" whether it's
overall level at a live gig or monitor levels at a recording.

I agree about live gigs, and in many cinemas also.

Cinema sound levels are, in theory at least, set by the studio, not the
cinema. A cinema's sound system is calibrated to a particular SPL, so if
the film is played at the recommended setting of the volume control then
the SPL heard in the cinema should be the same as that heard by the sound
mixers during dubbing.


Having done quite a lot of music editing/mixing for corporate
film/video productions, I was invited to take part in a
film mixing course for SDDS (Sony Digital DynamicSound)
The fixed control room levels were pretty scary!

The arrangement of channels was similar to 70mm mag.
For SDDS. Digital sound information was recorded on
the outer edges of the 35mm film print. There were up to
8 independent channels of sound: 5 at the front, 2 surround
channels and a sub-bass channel.

Very few cinemas have 5 channels at the front, latterly 70mm mag was only
using 3 channels for the front and using the other two for split surrounds
and bass enhancement.

The format weas discontinued, I have long since mis-laid
the course diploma but I do still have the huge blue-glazed
coffee mug with SDDS in gold leaf on the side:-))

I wasn't aware that it had been discontinued, new releases are still coming
out with the "SDDS" logo after the credits alongside the "Dolby" and "DTS"
logos. Mind you if it has been discontinued no one would notice, the
letters, apparently, *really* stand for "Still Doesn't Do ****". It was just
a pointless "Me Too" attempt by Sony to grab some of the cinema sound
business from Dolby and DTS.

David.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


You probably won't get far with one phone call. If your really feel
that you have been short-changed them some determination in getting
the matter sorted out, is required. I remember I once gave you a
"hot line" telephone number for EMI quality control. Did you ever
follow it up?

Yes. That was the most recent experience that confirmed my previous
conclusions. I phoned the number, only to find that no-one there knew
what I was talking about. Over a period of 2-3 weeks I phoned (and then
emailed) a number of people at EMI. No-one sorted out the problem or
took what I said seriously. The attitude was "if the CD is faulty, get a
replacement" regardless of my pointing out that I *had* tried *four*
replacements and they were all showing the same problem. A production
fault.


There seems to have been a failure here to undersrand what was the
precise nature of your complaint. A replacement CD was not the
answer:-(

To clarify further. IIRC you were saying that the manufactuers would be
wanting to know about my discovering a possible factory fault that
affected
many CDs in a batch, and would be happy to replace it themselves rather
than tell me to speak to the retailer. You gave me a phone number to try
this.

I did phone, and was passed around, put onto answerphones, given 'press 7
to get another answerphone', 'try Fred or Bill', etc, etc, for some weeks.
So far as I recall, no-one seemed to have any idea that something might be
done about a possible faulty batch of CDs. No-one was interested in
replacing it from the company itself. All I got was a runaround with
suggestions I return the CD (again) to the retailer. Frankly, the whole
excercise was a waste of my time. I only persisted for some days to try
and
see if I could get anywhere because you seemed certain I would.

By contrast the retailer were sympathetic and helpful - but could only
keep
sending me 'new' copies that had the same problem.

So no-one promised to see if they could "get to the bottom of the matter"?

Note though that I only mention EMI here as they were the specific example
I tried at your suggestion. I have no reason to think they are poorer than
other big music companies. Although I would suspect that some of the small
specialists would be rather better.

No.I think they are actually worse. Their production is handled by third
party plants.

In practice, though, this generally
doesn't matter with classical CDs as I find that almost all CDs play fine
with no sign of factory faults. This is true for EMI just as for other
companies. For me, this is the big contrast with the old days of LPs.

I did report this to you at the time IIRC so I am surprised that you seem
to have forgotten. If you hadn't asked again I would not have mentioned it
at length.


Jim, the last time we talked about this, IIRC you said,
"I have reported the problem, and am waiting to hear
back from them"

Presumably youn never did:-(

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the
effort of buying a CD.


Can't be many of those left these days! ;-)

Dunno as I don't have uptodate figures. But I suspect there may be more
buyers of CDs than LPs at present. :-)

That's a fairly safe bet, I would say.:-)
But stocks of the new LPs that are made available are exhausted
very quickly. Pressing companies seem to have resisted the temptation
to over-run the stampers. A waiting list for new pressings seems
much more desirable/newsworthy.

Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret for
some reason.

Do you need a "hot-line" nunber for the BPI also, Jim? :-)
Their press/PR secretary has all the facts and figs at his
fingertips.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

I agree. People (including myself) eventually decide it is a waste of
time to complain if previous attempts at feedback produce no useful
outcome. i guess people have no interest in keeping meeedia suits in a
job.

You probably won't get far with one phone call. If your really feel
that you have been short-changed them some determination in getting the
matter sorted out, is required. I remember I once gave you a "hot
line" telephone number for EMI quality control. Did you ever follow it
up?

Yes. That was the most recent experience that confirmed my previous
conclusions. I phoned the number, only to find that no-one there knew what
I was talking about. Over a period of 2-3 weeks I phoned (and then
emailed)
a number of people at EMI. No-one sorted out the problem or took what I
said seriously. The attitude was "if the CD is faulty, get a replacement"
regardless of my pointing out that I *had* tried *four* replacements and
they were all showing the same problem. A production fault.

Afraid, Iain, that my experience confirmed I was wasting my time.


That's a very surprising (lack of a) result. One might expect a shrug
of the shoulder from a small independent label, but a large company
should be able to put you through to someone who understands that
you are talking about a production fault: Did no-one say to you.
"Let me dig out the archive CD. I will play it, and get back to you
within the hour" ??


My experience over many decades is otherwise, I'm afraid. I have often
complained, or asked for help. In general, nothing useful results.'

You seem ready to accept that nothing can be done.

Most retailers are probably not a bit interested, and can only offer you
"another one the same" so one has to go back to the label.

Admittedly the 'young people' I talk to tend to be in the 17-25 year
old range. Maybe this is too old for the group you have in mind.

No. That's the perfect range. One young lady said just recently. "I buy
10-15 CDs at a time. If I don't like a couple of them, I just swop
them, or give them away" :-)

She may well be typical. Who knows?

Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the effort
of
buying a CD. Can't say from just one as that makes assessment of
statistical significance impossible. But the vital point is that may not
tell us much about those who don't bother to buy CDs as it seems a
waste of time to them.

I think you ae generalising there, Jim.
Besides which, are not download files 256kb .mp4s?
They might be even worse than the CD :-)


The problem with 'examples' like the one you quote is that they fall into
a
well-known statistical flaw. If you go into a pub and ask the people
there,
"How many of you have been killed as a result of driving faster than the
speed limit?" the response will probably indicate that no-one has. This
does not mean speeding is 'safe'. It just means you are preselecting the
group you are surveying to make mince of your conclusions. The error is
drawing an conclusion as a result of making a false assumption about what
you can deduce from the 'evidence'.'


Yes I realise that. But I think this illustrates that most people don't
regard the quality as being important. Music has become much
more transitory.


Even if one could talk to 1 000 people, it might not
be a large enough sample.

My experience is that the above is quite a fair analogy for the waymuch of
the pop/rock part of the music biz has proceeded to regard the 'market'.
Sorry if you don't see this, but tragic if they don't... GIGO.

I think you will just have to accept that perhaps the
majority-held view (which may be erronious:-) is
different to your own.

Sad, I agree.

Regards
Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that
the BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial
secret for some reason.


My guess is that the last of the *CD buyers* will be those of the
'classical persuasion' with the more modern stuff and all 'pop' going
the way of the 'Net, iPod, cellphone and whatever else they come up
with!

You may be correct, although I'd probably use "LPCM" in the above as
distinct from lossy compression schemes.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:



There seems to have been a failure here to undersrand what was the
precise nature of your complaint. A replacement CD was not the answer:-(

Indeed.


So no-one promised to see if they could "get to the bottom of the
matter"?

I can't recall specifics now, but I think I did get various comments about
checking things... cf below.


Note though that I only mention EMI here as they were the specific
example I tried at your suggestion. I have no reason to think they are
poorer than other big music companies. Although I would suspect that
some of the small specialists would be rather better.

No.I think they are actually worse. Their production is handled by
third party plants.

I know than many used to use PDO as I had some of the 'brown rot' CDs.
However my experience with small specialist classical marques is that their
quality is high. Can't comment on pop/rock so much.

In practice, though, this generally doesn't matter with classical CDs
as I find that almost all CDs play fine with no sign of factory
faults. This is true for EMI just as for other companies. For me, this
is the big contrast with the old days of LPs.

I did report this to you at the time IIRC so I am surprised that you
seem to have forgotten. If you hadn't asked again I would not have
mentioned it at length.


Jim, the last time we talked about this, IIRC you said, "I have
reported the problem, and am waiting to hear back from them"

Presumably youn never did:-(

Correct. In the end I did start playing the "I do write audio articles and
I am now looking at this, can you help me?" to see if that prompted a more
attentive response. I did exchange emails and phone calls with people. But
never managed to establish anything like "yes there was a factory problem
with that batch". No real response. The presumption was that either

A) The individual CD was faulty - return to retailer.

or

B) All my players were poor - change them.

In the end I did find one player that could play one of the CDs. This is
the Rega Apollo which seems very good with dubious CDs - although it does
struggle with some other types of disc that play well in the other machines
I have. I also did eventually get a 'good' copy of the CD which was
provided for me by someone else who has nothing to do with EMI or the
factory.

It was an interesting experiment which I may write up one day. But the
results were as I'd suspected on the basis of trying to deal with faulty
LPs many years ago. Waste of time expecting the company to deal with the
'complaint' seriously. Whoever's job it might be to deal with issues like
this, it was never the person I was speaking to, and they didn't know who
was responsible, or could tell me their name or phone number. People were
friendly and sympathetic though, so I have no complaint about any of the
people I spoke to. Just that I found no sign that the company had any way
of dealing with such an issue reported by a mere customer. Afraid this
squares with what I've heard from retailers over the years as well.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html