Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret for
some reason.

Do you need a "hot-line" nunber for the BPI also, Jim? :-)
Their press/PR secretary has all the facts and figs at his
fingertips.

You gave me a contact some time ago. As with the 'CD quality' issue I have
been describing I did follow it up. The result was only some partial figues
for some purposes. But not the specific figures I would need to actually
work out the numbers. In effect I got a glossy press release with some
figures presented as PR to boost specific 'positive points' that the BPI
wanted to present. Not the actual values I needed.

if you look at my website you can see the sales breakdowns I did some years
ago. I specifically asked for the data to be able to the same for the more
recent year(s). This wasn't provided. I did ask more than once as I recall,
and made what I wanted fairly plain.

So I'm afraid that this was another 'hot line' I did try to find that the
water was actually cold.

I appreciate that it may be different for 'insiders' or those who are
willing to pay X hundred pounds a year to subscribe to the BPI reports. But
I just wanted half a dozen specific values to be able to write about this
and I guess no-one had any interest in my doing that. Perhaps particularly
if what I wrote took some of the 'gloss' off some PR. However I can't tell
as I didn't get the info required.

You may recall that the *previous* year for which I did have figures were
because an anonymous source sent me a leaked copy of a report. Looks like
that it the only route open to me as an interested amateur.

The RIAA seem much more open. Although the problem there is that they also
keep changing the way they break down and simplify their stats to make
year-on-year comparisons difficult at times.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

Yes. That was the most recent experience that confirmed my previous
conclusions. I phoned the number, only to find that no-one there knew
what I was talking about. Over a period of 2-3 weeks I phoned (and
then emailed) a number of people at EMI. No-one sorted out the problem
or took what I said seriously. The attitude was "if the CD is faulty,
get a replacement" regardless of my pointing out that I *had* tried
*four* replacements and they were all showing the same problem. A
production fault.

Afraid, Iain, that my experience confirmed I was wasting my time.


That's a very surprising (lack of a) result. One might expect a shrug
of the shoulder from a small independent label, but a large company
should be able to put you through to someone who understands that you
are talking about a production fault: Did no-one say to you. "Let me dig
out the archive CD. I will play it, and get back to you within the hour"
??

LOL. Most certainly not. I have the feeling you are pulling my leg. :-)




My experience over many decades is otherwise, I'm afraid. I have often
complained, or asked for help. In general, nothing useful results.'

You seem ready to accept that nothing can be done.

....based on repeated experience over decades, I'm afraid. Not based on
never having tried.


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the
effort of buying a CD. Can't say from just one as that makes assessment
of statistical significance impossible. But the vital point is that may
not tell us much about those who don't bother to buy CDs as it seems a
waste of time to them.

I think you ae generalising there, Jim. Besides which, are not download
files 256kb .mp4s? They might be even worse than the CD :-)

Dunno about that at present, However I have been quite impressed by the
320kbps mp3s that the Concertgebouw have made freely available during the
last year or so. These are good enough to have stimulated my taking such
lossy compressed formats more seriously.


My experience is that the above is quite a fair analogy for the
waymuch of the pop/rock part of the music biz has proceeded to regard
the 'market'. Sorry if you don't see this, but tragic if they don't...
GIGO.

I think you will just have to accept that perhaps the majority-held view
(which may be erronious:-) is different to your own.

Sad, I agree.

Yes. The evidence is that many of them do believe what you have described.
I can only point out that this is a belief that can only be drawn from the
evidence by making assumptions the evidence itself does not establish as
reliable. Indeed, other evidence indicates otherwise, but they may simply
find it inconvenient to realise this, or it may pass them by as their faith
system is too well settled in their minds. A pity, but I do agree with you
that they seem to believe they are right.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that
the BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial
secret for some reason.


My guess is that the last of the *CD buyers* will be those of the
'classical persuasion' with the more modern stuff and all 'pop' going
the way of the 'Net, iPod, cellphone and whatever else they come up
with!

You may be correct, although I'd probably use "LPCM" in the above as
distinct from lossy compression schemes.


Am always pleased to see that as an audio option on a Bluray movie (usually
occupies 4-5 Gig of diskspace), but if we're talking 'mobile music' (as
above) a 256K MP3 or equivalent will do me - what I wonder is, given that
storage media advances make more sense of *uncompressed* these days, what's
the overhead in terms of energy consumption and/or battery life pumping the
bigger files about and, ultimately, the contribution to global warming?

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote


Am always pleased to see that as an audio option on a Bluray movie
(usually occupies 4-5 Gig of diskspace), but if we're talking 'mobile
music' (as above) a 256K MP3 or equivalent will do me - what I wonder is,
given that storage media advances make more sense of *uncompressed* these
days, what's the overhead in terms of energy consumption and/or battery
life pumping the bigger files about and, ultimately, the contribution to
global warming?


I wish to qualify the above:

I'm already not too impressed that technology advances facilitate the
transportation of Chavs to distant foreign parts several times a year just
so they can vomit down different drains for a change at the price of
considerable planet damage, if what we are being told is correct. In the
same vein, if playing larger music files does in fact consume more energy, I
don't need to see this planet toasted even further/quicker just so the same
Chav (x about 1 *billion* of his counterparts on a daily basis, worldwide)
get to hear their pop ****e that infinitessimal bit better when driving
their fellow passengers nuts on the tube/bus/train with leaky headphones....

Know what I mean?

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that
the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret
for
some reason.

Do you need a "hot-line" nunber for the BPI also, Jim? :-)
Their press/PR secretary has all the facts and figs at his
fingertips.

You gave me a contact some time ago. As with the 'CD quality' issue I have
been describing I did follow it up. The result was only some partial
figues
for some purposes. But not the specific figures I would need to actually
work out the numbers. In effect I got a glossy press release with some
figures presented as PR to boost specific 'positive points' that the BPI
wanted to present. Not the actual values I needed.

if you look at my website you can see the sales breakdowns I did some
years
ago. I specifically asked for the data to be able to the same for the more
recent year(s). This wasn't provided. I did ask more than once as I
recall,
and made what I wanted fairly plain.

So I'm afraid that this was another 'hot line' I did try to find that the
water was actually cold.

I appreciate that it may be different for 'insiders' or those who are
willing to pay X hundred pounds a year to subscribe to the BPI reports.
But
I just wanted half a dozen specific values to be able to write about this
and I guess no-one had any interest in my doing that. Perhaps particularly
if what I wrote took some of the 'gloss' off some PR. However I can't tell
as I didn't get the info required.

You may recall that the *previous* year for which I did have figures were
because an anonymous source sent me a leaked copy of a report. Looks like
that it the only route open to me as an interested amateur.

The RIAA seem much more open. Although the problem there is that they also
keep changing the way they break down and simplify their stats to make
year-on-year comparisons difficult at times.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Indeed, I wonder if more classical CDs are sold than LPs. Shame that
the
BPI seem to treat detailed figures as if they are a commercial secret
for
some reason.

Do you need a "hot-line" nunber for the BPI also, Jim? :-)
Their press/PR secretary has all the facts and figs at his
fingertips.

You gave me a contact some time ago. As with the 'CD quality' issue I have
been describing I did follow it up. The result was only some partial
figues
for some purposes. But not the specific figures I would need to actually
work out the numbers. In effect I got a glossy press release with some
figures presented as PR to boost specific 'positive points' that the BPI
wanted to present. Not the actual values I needed.

Well it's not the KGB, the info they have is not subject to the
Official Secrets Act:-) They have all the data at their fngertips.
But, as you say, mabe they feel it would be disloyal to people who
pay a subscription for the data, if they gave it away to others for
free. Particularly to people who include it in published articles:-)


The RIAA seem much more open. Although the problem there is that they also
keep changing the way they break down and simplify their stats to make
year-on-year comparisons difficult at times.

Yes indeed. Interpretation of the data provided can be
difficult.

A loca record shop owner told me a couple of days ago that
he says more (second hand) vinly than he does (new) CDs.

Imagine the headline "LP sales exceed CD" :-))

Iain



Iain
Relativity for musicians E=Fb

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

You gave me a contact some time ago. As with the 'CD quality' issue I
have been describing I did follow it up. The result was only some
partial figues for some purposes. But not the specific figures I
would need to actually work out the numbers. In effect I got a glossy
press release with some figures presented as PR to boost specific
'positive points' that the BPI wanted to present. Not the actual
values I needed.

Well it's not the KGB, the info they have is not subject to the Official
Secrets Act:-) They have all the data at their fngertips. But, as you
say, mabe they feel it would be disloyal to people who pay a
subscription for the data, if they gave it away to others for free.
Particularly to people who include it in published articles:-)


Since they were given the figures by the companies I guess it is up to them
to decide if it is to be kept secret. However it is hard to decide what
'harm' publication would cause them *if* the snippets and selective
interpretations they gloss onto them aren't simply 'spin'. The figures I
have seen seem to be those which show 'improvements' in one area or
another, but with other areas unmentioned.

You may be unaware, Iain, of the curious situation that UK MPs have dropped
themselves into as a result of the way they behaved when they worked on the
basis that they could keep 'secret' their actual expenses claims. They
insisted that publication wasn't necessary, and would not show that the
facts differed from their saying all was well. Yet the facts turn out to be
otherwise.

Given the way people who have such info like to 'select and spin' I'm
afraid I do have doubts about what they generously announce as being a
reliable picture of the topics about which they remain oddly silent.

Maybe you are right and they are more concerned with making money from
selling the figures than in keeping people informed. Perhaps this is why
the info doesn't seem to appear in any UK audio or music magazines.

However I can live happily enough without the info I wanted. IIRC you
thought they'd provide it, but they didn't. This is a shame, but not the
end of the world.

But as with the 'faulty CD' it seems that your feeling about what help I
might get from the companies turned out to differ from the reality. As I've
pointed out, this does not particularly surprise me as it is consistent
with my personal experiences - and the reports of others - over many years.

For me the real shame is that this inward looking behaviour of the industry
is actually generating self-inflicted wounds which they then try to shift
blame for onto (now ex-)customers. Oddly it does not seem to occur to them
- any more than some MPs - that they might be responsible in some way for
the outcomes which eventually cannot be hidden. But I can only surmise this
due to the way they behave.

The RIAA seem much more open. Although the problem there is that they
also keep changing the way they break down and simplify their stats to
make year-on-year comparisons difficult at times.

Yes indeed. Interpretation of the data provided can be difficult.

A loca record shop owner told me a couple of days ago that he says more
(second hand) vinly than he does (new) CDs.

Imagine the headline "LP sales exceed CD" :-))

Our local second-hand music (mainly old LPs) shop seemed to be doing quite
well for a couple of years. However it closed down towards the end of last
year, so I guess it wasn't making a profit. Didn't notice a headline in our
local paper, "LP sales fall to zero!", though. :-)

That's the problem with partial/selected data, isn't it... People with a
vested interest or a bias can use it to pretend almost anything is 'true'
when it might be twaddle. Long may this continue if those who have the
data keep it secret for their own commercial purposes. It would not do to
let the punters know what the Bank is up to or why its directors have
pocketed vast bonuses for their 'skill and success', eh?... :-)

In the case of our local (ex-)shop I guess the reality was that the fashion
interest in LPs wasn't sufficient to keep the shop open, despite them also
trading via the internet. But I have no data, only the outcome which in the
end could not by kept 'secret'. "Murder will out" as Chaucer would have
said. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:


Afraid, Iain, that my experience confirmed I was wasting my time.


That's a very surprising (lack of a) result. One might expect a shrug
of the shoulder from a small independent label, but a large company
should be able to put you through to someone who understands that you
are talking about a production fault: Did no-one say to you. "Let me dig
out the archive CD. I will play it, and get back to you within the hour"
??

LOL. Most certainly not. I have the feeling you are pulling my leg. :-)

No not at all. I used to work closely with a lady who was then
an exec producer . She had a very good way of getting things
like this done. She was always charming but firm on the telephone.
When she had reached a person whom she thought could deal with the
matter in hand, she used to say: "I can appreciate you are busy. Let
me see, it's 11.30 am now. Enjoy your lunch, I will expect to hear
from you within the hour" This always seemed to work.

You seem ready to accept that nothing can be done.

...based on repeated experience over decades, I'm afraid. Not based on
never having tried.


Dunno. She may be typical of those who feel it is still worth the
effort of buying a CD. Can't say from just one as that makes assessment
of statistical significance impossible. But the vital point is that may
not tell us much about those who don't bother to buy CDs as it seems a
waste of time to them.

I think you ae generalising there, Jim. Besides which, are not download
files 256kb .mp4s? They might be even worse than the CD :-)

Dunno about that at present, However I have been quite impressed by the
320kbps mp3s that the Concertgebouw have made freely available during the
last year or so. These are good enough to have stimulated my taking such
lossy compressed formats more seriously.

There are also broadcasts in Germany, Sweden and Holland at 320kbs
which can be later downloaded I am told.

I think you will just have to accept that perhaps the majority-held view
(which may be erronious:-) is different to your own.
Sad, I agree.

Yes. The evidence is that many of them do believe what you have described.
I can only point out that this is a belief that can only be drawn from the
evidence by making assumptions the evidence itself does not establish as
reliable. Indeed, other evidence indicates otherwise, but they may simply
find it inconvenient to realise this, or it may pass them by as their
faith system is too well settled in their minds. A pity, but I do agree
with you that they seem to believe they are right.

And they do this based upon the evidence they see before them.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



That's a very surprising (lack of a) result. One might expect a
shrug of the shoulder from a small independent label, but a large
company should be able to put you through to someone who understands
that you are talking about a production fault: Did no-one say to you.
"Let me dig out the archive CD. I will play it, and get back to you
within the hour"
??

LOL. Most certainly not. I have the feeling you are pulling my leg.
:-)

No not at all. I used to work closely with a lady who was then an exec
producer . She had a very good way of getting things like this done.
She was always charming but firm on the telephone. When she had reached
a person whom she thought could deal with the matter in hand, she used
to say: "I can appreciate you are busy. Let me see, it's 11.30 am now.
Enjoy your lunch, I will expect to hear from you within the hour" This
always seemed to work.

I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be a
source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

Alas, in reality what I found was that almost no-one was 'the right person'
or would even give me their phone number. Instead all calls were via
automatated "press 6 to get the rabbit mincing department..." followed
generally by an answerphone asking you to leave a message.

The result is that repeated attempts to even speak to the same person were
generally futile.

I'm sorry if this clashes with what you think should of happened. I also
think I should have been treated differently. But I wasn't. My recollection
is that everyone I spoke to was pleasant and did indicate they'd like to
help. So I have no complaint about any individual I spoke to. But what I
found did not agree with what you think should have happened, I'm afraid. I
could find no-one who said "Yes, it is my job to react if a member of the
public reports a batch is faulty and to check what happened."

The closest I got was when I put on my 'writer asking the press dept' hat
after I'd spent a weary time trying as a mere customer. But still no-one
seemed to think it was in the company game plan to deal with customer
feedback that "you may have a faulty batch" rather than "my CD is faulty
can I have a new one?" (For which the reaction was, "return to retailer".
Quite understandable in my view as my contract is with the retailer if the
goods are faulty.)

In the end I kept the set of faulty CDs in case I want to use them as the
basis for more measurements on this kind of problem, and the relative
perormance of different players. For me some CDs like this are useful 'test
material' so I ended up wanting to keep them anyway. But I doubt most
buyers would.

So overall I can't fault any of the individuals. I can only point out that
the company organisation didn't agree with what you were confident would
manifest.

FWIW In other contexts I have adopted "I will keep phoning you back at ever
decreasing intervals" as a tactic. In some cases it can work *if* they
can't avoid dealing with your calls as their job does require them to do
so. I've also stood on someone's desk more than once until they did the bit
of work they had to. :-) But I'm afraid that doesn't work in situations
like this if you are a mere customer with one or two CDs. Not in the age of
answerphones, "He isn't in", "press 99 for another recorded message", etc.

As I keep explaining, I can only base this on my experience. I don't know
their motives or why they didn't act as you assumed they would.



I think you will just have to accept that perhaps the majority-held
view (which may be erronious:-) is different to your own. Sad, I
agree.

Yes. The evidence is that many of them do believe what you have
described. I can only point out that this is a belief that can only be
drawn from the evidence by making assumptions the evidence itself does
not establish as reliable. Indeed, other evidence indicates otherwise,
but they may simply find it inconvenient to realise this, or it may
pass them by as their faith system is too well settled in their
minds. A pity, but I do agree with you that they seem to believe they
are right.

And they do this based upon the evidence they see before them.

Not quite, m'lud. Your assertion mirrors their error. It probably does
describe their state of mind, but not necessarily the reality the presume
they understand. :-)

The weakness resides in the way they draw their conclusion from the
evidence. The snag being that their argument for presuming the evidence
shows this conclusion to be correct isn't itself demonstrated by the
evidence. It stems from their own assumptions which they then apply to
'interpret' the evidence.

The problem is that if a group are convinced that phlogiston is the cause
of burning they then 'interpret' the evidence to support their belief. Yet
if they actually carry out cross checking to test their deduction they may
find their conclusion simply doesn't stand up to a critical test.

Alas, if they like their theory they may have no interest in seeing if it
might be unfounded. This risk of being shown to be wrong is particularly
easy to avoid when the 'evidence' they've collected and they way the derive
conclusions are 'their secret knowledge'. Then doubters can be excluded and
dismissed on the basis that they "don't have the necessary knowledge or
understanding".

Thus their view may well essentially be a theology, not a rational or
scientific one. They act like priests who can read the holy scripts in the
language they use to keep the peasants from being able to read it for
themselves. Thay way their 'conclusions' can be presented as 'correct on
the basis of the evidence' with minimal fear of contradiction.

Having 'data' does not automatically make a conclusion drawn from it either
rational or scientific, let alone 'accurate'. :-)

Of course, this kind of thinking is rife, so they aren't unique. Even in
audio circles... ;-

Despite the above, I am sure that many in the 'music companies' are
skilled, dedicated, and have good intentions. Many do their job well. But
none of those things are protections against others simply falling into
woolly thinking and coming up with false beliefs that happen to suit them.
(NB There is a deliberate pun here in my use of "suit them". ;- )

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


snip latest in the 'dodgy music media' saga



Thus their view may well essentially be a theology, not a rational or
scientific one. They act like priests who can read the holy scripts in the
language they use to keep the peasants from being able to read it for
themselves. Thay way their 'conclusions' can be presented as 'correct on
the basis of the evidence' with minimal fear of contradiction.


Arcane behaviour wasn't the peculiar behaviour of the church; everybody was
at it back in 'the day' - not the least, the Masons. Holy scripts in Latin
were merely using the 'universal' language of the day for that sector of
society - other sectors used Greek or 'Arabic'. If the movies have any basis
in fact at all, it appears there was no fear of contradiction in the RC
church - not after the inception of the Inquisition, at any rate!


Having 'data' does not automatically make a conclusion drawn from it
either
rational or scientific, let alone 'accurate'. :-)


IME, having access to 'data' is one of the biggest causes of *wattocks*
these days - witness the crap they come out with in the media! My old
(farmhand/dairyman) grandfather's 'don't believe half of what you see or any
of what you hear' from the 60s even more relevant than ever!