Frequency response of the ear
 

I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be a
source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

Alas, in reality what I found was that almost no-one was 'the right person'
or would even give me their phone number. Instead all calls were via
automatated "press 6 to get the rabbit mincing department..." followed
generally by an answerphone asking you to leave a message.

The result is that repeated attempts to even speak to the same person were
generally futile.

I had a problem with a download off the site run by Chandos records.
Phoned up and a Mr Couzens who runs the firm immediately sent me CD in
place of the download and was very apologetic about the whole thing!..

Excellent customer service:)..
--
Tony Sayer

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



That's a very surprising (lack of a) result. One might expect a
shrug of the shoulder from a small independent label, but a large
company should be able to put you through to someone who understands
that you are talking about a production fault: Did no-one say to you.
"Let me dig out the archive CD. I will play it, and get back to you
within the hour"
??

LOL. Most certainly not. I have the feeling you are pulling my leg.
:-)

No not at all. I used to work closely with a lady who was then an exec
producer . She had a very good way of getting things like this done.
She was always charming but firm on the telephone. When she had reached
a person whom she thought could deal with the matter in hand, she used
to say: "I can appreciate you are busy. Let me see, it's 11.30 am now.
Enjoy your lunch, I will expect to hear from you within the hour" This
always seemed to work.

I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be a
source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

You too are a customer, and so you too are a source of income or work,
and can have the same expectations as to proper treatment. Without people
like you buying the product, there would be no record industry.

Alas, in reality what I found was that almost no-one was 'the right
person'
or would even give me their phone number. Instead all calls were via
automatated "press 6 to get the rabbit mincing department..." followed
generally by an answerphone asking you to leave a message.

The result is that repeated attempts to even speak to the same person were
generally futile.

I'm sorry if this clashes with what you think should of happened. I also
think I should have been treated differently. But I wasn't. My
recollection
is that everyone I spoke to was pleasant and did indicate they'd like to
help. So I have no complaint about any individual I spoke to. But what I
found did not agree with what you think should have happened, I'm afraid.
I
could find no-one who said "Yes, it is my job to react if a member of the
public reports a batch is faulty and to check what happened."

The closest I got was when I put on my 'writer asking the press dept' hat
after I'd spent a weary time trying as a mere customer. But still no-one
seemed to think it was in the company game plan to deal with customer
feedback that "you may have a faulty batch" rather than "my CD is faulty
can I have a new one?" (For which the reaction was, "return to retailer".
Quite understandable in my view as my contract is with the retailer if the
goods are faulty.)

In the end I kept the set of faulty CDs in case I want to use them as the
basis for more measurements on this kind of problem, and the relative
perormance of different players. For me some CDs like this are useful
'test
material' so I ended up wanting to keep them anyway. But I doubt most
buyers would.

So overall I can't fault any of the individuals. I can only point out that
the company organisation didn't agree with what you were confident would
manifest.

No but you were cleverly (and politely) passed from one person to
another - none of whom could help you - and all of whom knew full
well the identity of someone who could!

FWIW In other contexts I have adopted "I will keep phoning you back at
ever
decreasing intervals" as a tactic. In some cases it can work *if* they
can't avoid dealing with your calls as their job does require them to do
so. I've also stood on someone's desk more than once until they did the
bit
of work they had to. :-) But I'm afraid that doesn't work in situations
like this if you are a mere customer with one or two CDs. Not in the age
of
answerphones, "He isn't in", "press 99 for another recorded message", etc.

As I keep explaining, I can only base this on my experience. I don't know
their motives or why they didn't act as you assumed they would.

I am still amazed at the lack of response you achieved.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be a
source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

Alas, in reality what I found was that almost no-one was 'the right
person'
or would even give me their phone number. Instead all calls were via
automatated "press 6 to get the rabbit mincing department..." followed
generally by an answerphone asking you to leave a message.

The result is that repeated attempts to even speak to the same person were
generally futile.

I had a problem with a download off the site run by Chandos records.
Phoned up and a Mr Couzens who runs the firm immediately sent me CD in
place of the download and was very apologetic about the whole thing!..

Excellent customer service:)..

That's precisely the level of service I expected would be extended
to Jim. I was very surprsised when it was not.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


I am still amazed at the lack of response you achieved.

I'm not. It sounds just like the sort of response I've got in the past
dealing with software houses and manufacturers. The general attitude of the
"help-desk" staff is that there can't be anything wrong with their products,
and that if *you* are having problems with it it's your fault.

One particular case I had was an IEEE1394 connected AV A-D/D-A unit. There
was a simple design mistake that resulted in excessive audio distortion
(there was a "protection" diode across the audio output!), but could I get
anyone to listen?. I sent them circuit diagrams showing the mistake and
illustrating how protection diodes (if they really felt them necessary, I
don't) could be connected without causing distortion, all to no avail. Like
Jim I was passed from one person to another, who either didn't understand
what I was saying, or didn't care. In the end I gave up.

David.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be
a source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

You too are a customer, and so you too are a source of income or work,
and can have the same expectations as to proper treatment. Without
people like you buying the product, there would be no record industry.

I agree. Alas, experience shows that generally cuts no ice with the larger
companies. I have no doubt they'd be happy to put such assertions into a
companty "mission statement". Just that it tends not to happen in reality.



So overall I can't fault any of the individuals. I can only point out
that the company organisation didn't agree with what you were
confident would manifest.

No but you were cleverly (and politely) passed from one person to
another - none of whom could help you - and all of whom knew full well
the identity of someone who could!

Well if they *did* know the "identity of someone who could" help me, why
did they all put me thought to someone who *couldn't* actually help with
the basic point I was contacting them about?

They may well have hoped or assumed the next person could help. But they
were wrong as this repeatedly turned out not to be so.

The problem here is an organisational failure to be able to respond. As
I've said I don't blame any of the specific individuals I spoke to.


As I keep explaining, I can only base this on my experience. I don't
know their motives or why they didn't act as you assumed they would.

I am still amazed at the lack of response you achieved.

Alas, I am not. But I can only judge this on my experiences, which clearly
differ from what those who run such companies might wish to believe.

As per Tony's comment about Chandos, though, I suspect I might have been
rather more successful with a small specialist company.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message


I had a problem with a download off the site run by Chandos records.
Phoned up and a Mr Couzens who runs the firm immediately sent me CD in
place of the download and was very apologetic about the whole thing!..

Excellent customer service:)..

That's precisely the level of service I expected would be extended to
Jim. I was very surprsised when it was not.

I'm afraid my experiences with UK companies over the years in many areas is
that you are much more likely to get a useful response from small
specialists than from big companies.

Having worked in both small companies and big concerns one difference has
repeatedly struck me.

In small UK companies three things seem more often to be true.

A) They are run by people who chose this kind of work as it interests them.
They care, and are knowledgeable.

B) They have much closer contact with customers (and workforce) and the
communications between workers is more direct if everyone knows everyone
else.

C) They can see how much product is going out the door (and how much is
being rejected). They have a much greater awareness that their wages depend
on sales, and ideally customers who would choose their company again. Loss
of custom can mean running out of cash quite quickly, and thence the dole
queue.

Whereas those in big companies have much more scope for playing office
politics, being out of contact with other workers or mere customers, and
can jockey for promotion as a 'suit' whilst blaming others for any lack of
sales. Hence the growth of dubious or spurious 'explanations' for loss of
sales based on treating the customers as mugs who won't care if the actual
product if shoddy. TBH small companies can't do this as they simply won't
survive for very long. Indeed *big* companies won't survive this, either,
but they can last for much longer as they slowly corrode away their
customer base, etc, and re-arrange deckchairs in the faith that this will
save them.

So I would also have been surprised if Chandos had failed to deal with the
specific problem I was raising with the larger company. But I've never had
occasion to contact them with a similar problem, so can't say from my
direct experience.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


I am still amazed at the lack of response you achieved.

I'm not. It sounds just like the sort of response I've got in the past
dealing with software houses and manufacturers. The general attitude of
the "help-desk" staff is that there can't be anything wrong with their
products, and that if *you* are having problems with it it's your fault.

I did not get that in the specific case Iain asked about, but it is sadly
familiar from other dealings with large companies I've had in the past as
an engineer and someone running a research group who wanted to assemble
good kit for high quality measurements.

One particular case I had was an IEEE1394 connected AV A-D/D-A unit.
There was a simple design mistake that resulted in excessive audio
distortion (there was a "protection" diode across the audio output!),
but could I get anyone to listen?. I sent them circuit diagrams showing
the mistake and illustrating how protection diodes (if they really felt
them necessary, I don't) could be connected without causing distortion,
all to no avail. Like Jim I was passed from one person to another, who
either didn't understand what I was saying, or didn't care. In the end
I gave up.

I ended up always getting my postgrads to design, build, check, and alter
all their lab kit. That way you can spot the flaws in the kit.

I also recall many years ago a new technician who was from Canada. He was
puzzled when we all fell about laughing when he complained that when he
asked companies in the UK for help/info they said "I'll get back to you"
but never did. We explained that for many companies in the UK this is a
synonym for, "Sod off! I can't be bothered."

FWIW I'm currently doing an 'investigation' that involves computer audio. I
have been amazed by how poor some computer/soundcard systems are. It is
trivially easy to get this right for digital outputs. But clearly some
makers cannae be bothered. And presumably many purchasers don't know how
their system is flawed and could easily be better for zero cost if the
makers had bothered.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


I can appreciate that someone who works in the industry and who may be
a source of income or work or professional reputation might have some
advantage over a mere CD purchaser. :-)

You too are a customer, and so you too are a source of income or work,
and can have the same expectations as to proper treatment. Without
people like you buying the product, there would be no record industry.

I agree. Alas, experience shows that generally cuts no ice with the larger
companies. I have no doubt they'd be happy to put such assertions into a
companty "mission statement". Just that it tends not to happen in reality.



So overall I can't fault any of the individuals. I can only point out
that the company organisation didn't agree with what you were
confident would manifest.

No but you were cleverly (and politely) passed from one person to
another - none of whom could help you - and all of whom knew full well
the identity of someone who could!

Well if they *did* know the "identity of someone who could" help me, why
did they all put me thought to someone who *couldn't* actually help with
the basic point I was contacting them about?


That's the mystery!! But, there were probably half a dozen
people at senior level who could have discussed the matter with
you, checked what you reported and made contact with you again.
You could have returned the CD by registered post, having got
the name of a specific person, and asked if they could play it.
If not, your point would have been proven ipso facto

The problem is perhaps that you never got the ear of anyone
who was willing to crack the whip, and get something done
about it.



Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

You gave me a contact some time ago. As with the 'CD quality' issue I
have been describing I did follow it up. The result was only some
partial figues for some purposes. But not the specific figures I
would need to actually work out the numbers. In effect I got a glossy
press release with some figures presented as PR to boost specific
'positive points' that the BPI wanted to present. Not the actual
values I needed.

Well it's not the KGB, the info they have is not subject to the Official
Secrets Act:-) They have all the data at their fngertips. But, as you
say, mabe they feel it would be disloyal to people who pay a
subscription for the data, if they gave it away to others for free.
Particularly to people who include it in published articles:-)


Since they were given the figures by the companies I guess it is up to
them
to decide if it is to be kept secret. However it is hard to decide what
'harm' publication would cause them *if* the snippets and selective
interpretations they gloss onto them aren't simply 'spin'. The figures I
have seen seem to be those which show 'improvements' in one area or
another, but with other areas unmentioned.

People cannot dispute or interpret your figs if you don't
release any:-)


You may be unaware, Iain, of the curious situation that UK MPs have
dropped
themselves into as a result of the way they behaved when they worked on
the
basis that they could keep 'secret' their actual expenses claims. They
insisted that publication wasn't necessary, and would not show that the
facts differed from their saying all was well. Yet the facts turn out to
be
otherwise.

Yes. I read The European and also The Daily telegraph
several times a week. Surely Michael Martin cannot survive
such a disgraceful business? (Sorry, that's strictly OT)

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


Well if they *did* know the "identity of someone who could" help me,
why did they all put me thought to someone who *couldn't* actually
help with the basic point I was contacting them about?


That's the mystery!! But, there were probably half a dozen people at
senior level who could have discussed the matter with you, checked what
you reported and made contact with you again.

Quite possibly. However it seems the company is so large that they are
isolated from callers by a series of other people who are unable to refer
you to them.

The problem is perhaps that you never got the ear of anyone who was
willing to crack the whip, and get something done about it.

Quite possibly. The problem is that from the POV of the mere customer the
distinction between

A) No-one in the company is able to help, or has the job required to do so.

B) Such people exist, but no-one you can contact knows about them, or can
connect you to them.

In practice therefore the distinction is a relevant as trying to decide how
many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Either way, the outcome is that what you contact them about does not get
dealt with and you have no idea if they are even capable of doing so.
Hence, having a real life of your own, you decide not to waste any more
time trying. Just one CD, after all, so far as the customer is concerned.

As I have previously pointed out, the almost all the CDs I've bought show
no sign of any factory problems. So I can survive the occasional duff one
if this is so rare an occurance. But the inability of the company to deal
with a customer warning them they have made a faulty batch might be problem
for the *company* in due course. It shows a lack of ability to respond
appropriately, and may well lose them custom in due course.

But again as I've said, no doubt there will be suits in the company who had
no idea of the warning signs because they were isolated from mere
customers. And so they come up with their own pet theories about what
customers 'like'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html