In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)



Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being reduced
in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with analogue
tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the degradation
reached a certain point, when the signal would become incoherent. Just as
happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and transfer digital
transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with a fingerprint of
strawberry jam on it.

On 19/12/2010 12:27 a.m., Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording
of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for
any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

Jim, now wouldn't it be the ideal piece to let loose on the "vinyl is
better than CD" brigade? It would also be interesting to compare how each
genre is mastered/ pressed ......... Oooh! and what about DBT just to put
the pressure on!

Mike

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print
through' from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long
enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through being
reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when recorded,
though.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with
a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with a
fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.



The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when DAB
radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when
DAB radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

Dunno why DAB is so bad in this respect. FreeView audio just mutes if it
loses the signal. My DAB car radio switches to FM. ;-)

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/12/2010 23:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

wrote:
Keith G wrote:
"Dave Plowman wrote:
Keith wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print
through' from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long
enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through being
reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when recorded,
though.

The effect from analogue print-through in audio is well-known. It is
manifested as a post-or pre-echo of the signal as the tape next to the bit
with the original signal passes the replay head. Pre-echo has been known to
transfer onto vinyl disc when transferred from a master tape with high-level
signal which has not been stored "tail out" (post-echo being seen as better
than pre-echo). You could hear a ghostly image of the intro a second or so
before the "proper" start.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with
a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

I don't have much experience with digital tape. I do have a nowadays-unused
DCC machine (and about four DCC cassettes) but never owned a DAT recorder. I
do have a digital tape video-cam, but can't say that I've either used it much
or noticed any problems.

In article , Mike Coatham
wrote:
On 19/12/2010 12:27 a.m., Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a
recording of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952
which is for any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes
and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

Jim, now wouldn't it be the ideal piece to let loose on the "vinyl is
better than CD" brigade? It would also be interesting to compare how
each genre is mastered/ pressed ......... Oooh! and what about DBT
just to put the pressure on!

If someone can provide me with copies sold on CD, LP, etc, I'll do the
measurements and post the results. They may interest the 'silent
majority'... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , JNugent
wrote:


But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD
with a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

I'm not sure if digital magnetic recordings would print though in the same
way as analogue. This is because I suspect the magnetic material is a
different formulation and is driven into saturation. But the more you
examine the behaviour of magnetic recording and the magnetic properties of
the materials, the weirder they turn out to be, so I could easily be wrong!
:-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html