Technics direct drive turntables
 

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:01:40 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

Interesting - tried to view this link and was greeted with "you have been
permanently banned". First time, that I recall, trying to view anything on
canuckaudiomart.com. Not the most welcoming site I've ever found.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Dick Bowman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:01:40 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

Interesting - tried to view this link and was greeted with "you have been
permanently banned". First time, that I recall, trying to view anything
on
canuckaudiomart.com. Not the most welcoming site I've ever found.


It works fine here, it is an image of a Systemdek.
So here is another, it's peak days were the 90's.
http://digilander.libero.it/bellocad...temdek_iix.jpg

Note: When Peter passed away, Audio Note bought up systemdek
and doubled the price, so no longer of interest to anyone when it
is priced as a Scottish deck:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...logue_01.shtml

Technics direct drive turntables
 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:50:19 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

They have now unbanned me - seems that they automatically ban European
addresses.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in message
...

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time
looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house between
direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler wheels/gears
instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.


Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass will
beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness and you
will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden percussion
instruments, rimshots etc.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
o.uk...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David wrote in
message

If Technics stuff is hard to come by second hand now, I
suggest it's because it was junked when it was replaced
by something newer. Technics was never a prestige brand,
so it never had the second-hand value of, say, Quad or
Leak.


IME Matsu****a products tend to be well-engineered and well made, and
this
makes their origional purchasers tend to want to hold onto them.


My SL120 still does the job as well as ever.



As do the two Technics DD decks I have here - including the all-important
auto return/shutoff mechanisms.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden
percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the rumble.
Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches the
hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make of all
these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that belief is a
very powerful thing!

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden
percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.



Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in
message
"David Kennedy"
wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers
of the time looking after old pals, and the mythology,
and you have exhausted options and comparisons, then if
you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts. But I'm no fan of it,
and it's not original nor
groundbreaking. It's based on established isolation principles found in
many T/T's from the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many
others) is it's an expensive variation of cheaper
longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house
between direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler
wheels/gears instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.

Actually, the 501 was very similar to the top Garrard changer of the day,
minus arm and mechanism. I believe the model of the corresponding changer
was the RC 88.

No way does the idler provide the same level of isolation as a belt.

Idlers are prone to "flat spots", and are extra problmatical when they
harden up because of the relatively small area that the motor shaft engages.

The purpose of the idler was speed reduction from the 1800 rpm of the 4 pole
motor to the desired speed of the turntable.

Rumble was always a problem because of the high speed of the motor. It
corresponded to 30 Hz.

One of the early refinements to turntables was the adoption of motors with
more than just 4 poles, for the benefit of the slower rotational speed. This
moved the primary vibrational mode to a frequency that was well below the
resonance of the tone arm.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote


Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.




Here are 3 YouTubes I did a little while ago with my replinthed Lenco idler
deck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiV1-..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiV1-..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEIE..._order&list=UL


You will need to allow for the fact that they have been recorded with a
little pocket digital video recorder's own built-in mono mic but it may give
you some idea.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you (the
Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so they
tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of wine-writers
language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't mean a damned
thing, but sounds impressive.

The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as you
claim why would anyone use anything else?

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave


Rave?


about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you
(the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so
they tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of
wine-writers language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't
mean a damned thing, but sounds impressive.


Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language - is the use
of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of counter-measure? I use the
language that best describes what I find, others do the same - some wax more
lyrical than others, what's the problem?



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as you
claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Keith G" wrote

As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble. Belt-drives were so much quieter.

Probably measurably true. But in practice I use a GL75 for some years
before I got the Technics DD. So far as I can recall the only audible
differences seemed to me to be attributable to a change of cartridge.

I'd used an M75 (IIRC) with the GL75 and I use a V15/III with the Technics.

Rumble didn't bother me with the GL75. And I did like the speed control and
drive spindle trick.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
David Looser wrote:


Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than
you (the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical
machine that turns any third-rate audio system into a
music machine to satsfy the gods, or so they tell me).

So sorry, simply better. :-)

Unfortunately, unquantifiably so in any technical sense.

The TD125 was a far better product.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language

Ah yes - "bashers". I criticise something to which you have a strong
emotional attachment, so I'm a "basher".

- is the use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of
counter-measure?

Nope, I was using the language that best described what I found.

I use the language that best describes what I find, others do the same -
some wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?

The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and "detail"
appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple machine we are
talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a turntable is when
you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall. OK, I understand
that *you feel* that the music you hear has more impact, tightness and
detail when you use an idler-wheel turntable than one with another type of
drive, which tells us something about you, but nothing about turntables.
If it was an objective fact that idler-wheel turntables had this effect on
music then the belt-drive and direct-drive turntables wouldn't have more or
less wiped out the idler-wheel type they way they have.


The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the UK.
In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:


The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and
"detail" appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple
machine we are talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a
turntable is when you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall.

All remeniscent of the the amplifier PRATs... :-)

....by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm And Timing, of
course. ;-


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the
UK. In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.

Curious that DD and also the 301/401 have come back into fashion in the UK
magazines in recent years. The old saying used to be "The wheel turns" as
various things went in and out of fashion. In this case it seems to be "The
turntables turn" or "turning the turntables". :-)

Whatever, I had a 310 given to me last year. Didn't want it so gave it to a
friend who was happy to play with restoring it. He currently uses one of
the expensive SME turntables, though. I'm still happy enough with the
Technics.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language

Ah yes - "bashers". I criticise something to which you have a strong
emotional attachment, so I'm a "basher".


'Strong emotional attachment'?

Where *do* you get it all from? Or have you always had a tendancy to
exaggerate?



- is the use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of
counter-measure?

Nope, I was using the language that best described what I found.


See above.



I use the language that best describes what I find, others do the same -
some wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?

The problem is that you think words like "impact", "tightness" and
"detail"
appropriate when talking about a turntable. This is a simple machine we
are
talking about here, the only time you get "impact" from a turntable is
when
you drop it on the floor or chuck it against the wall.


Bit difficult to argue with this deliberate narrow-mindedness isn't it?


OK, I understand
that *you feel* that the music you hear has more impact, tightness and
detail when you use an idler-wheel turntable than one with another type of
drive, which tells us something about you, but nothing about turntables.


It does - I've been there, done that. I've owned many turntables in my time
and currently have one idler on the go and two DD which are not currently in
use. I've had a number of different belt drives which were very good at the
time but have not lasted with me, which should tell you something - no?


If it was an objective fact that idler-wheel turntables had this effect on
music then the belt-drive and direct-drive turntables wouldn't have more
or
less wiped out the idler-wheel type they way they have.


See below....



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


Rubbish! When the 301 was launched Garrard were one of the largest and
most highly regarded turntable manufacturers in the world - not just the
UK.
In the following years they steadily lost market share to other
manufacturers, arguably because they doggedly stuck to the rumble-prone
idler-wheel drive arrangement.


High quality idler-wheel decks are complicated precision engineering
products which costs a lot more than chucking a mass-produced (Impex?) motor
and a rubber band into a wooden box - inevitable it should lose out in the
long run where price and *marketing* are important factors for survival.

Needless to say, rumble is not a problem with these high quality decks
unless the owner has neglected to let off the transit screws - which is
often the case, I believe, going by the fact that the local shop was happily
shifting a good number of ProJect Debut decks and didn't even know they had
transit screws on them!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in
message
"David Kennedy"
wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers
of the time looking after old pals, and the mythology,
and you have exhausted options and comparisons, then if
you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts. But I'm no fan of
it, and it's not original nor
groundbreaking. It's based on established isolation principles found in
many T/T's from the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many
others) is it's an expensive variation of cheaper
longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house
between direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler
wheels/gears instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.

Actually, the 501 was very similar to the top Garrard changer of the day,
minus arm and mechanism. I believe the model of the corresponding changer
was the RC 88.

No way does the idler provide the same level of isolation as a belt.

Idlers are prone to "flat spots", and are extra problmatical when they
harden up because of the relatively small area that the motor shaft
engages.


Interesting to see these old chestnuts perpetuated: I have never heard of
anyone suffering from either flat spots or hardened drive wheels - happy to
be corrected on either score, of course.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:

So sorry, simply better. :-)

Unfortunately, unquantifiably so in any technical sense.

Did you notice the ":-)"? This was Linn's phrase at the
time and it wasn't me saying it.

The TD125 was a far better product.

In what what way is it "Far better"?

Please see former comments about technical quanitification of performance.

Baring in mind they
are of a similar basic design and that the Linn has had
nearly 40 years of tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for sure that Linn
properly identified and addressed them.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message


Baring in mind they are of a similar basic design and that the Linn
has had nearly 40 years of tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for sure that Linn
properly identified and addressed them.

The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow / magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

Slainte

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf


The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow /
magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

I have not kept up with upgrades and have not purchased anything for my
Linn except replacement lid hinges in what must be 25 years.

I assume *somebody* has been buying all these 'upgrades' and 'tweaks',
otherwise Linn are presumably bonkers to go on producing them.

Undoubtably, the motive for doing this is profit but what is wrong with
that?

Depends what you mean by "wrong". :-)

I can see they want cashflow. That is fair enough. They may well have
decided this was a cheaper way for them to prolong the cashflow without the
bother of having to actually make a newer or better design of TT using
newer or better methods and materials. Indeed, maybe they lacked the skill
or insight to make something better as a design. Or felt they it would be
easier to market such 'mods' to an audience already 'under the spell'.
Maybe they were worried that a new design would not sound exactly like the
LP12 so would then fall foul of the 'flock' I mention below. Maybe they
became trapped by their own PR. Dunno. Can only speculate on their
thinking.

As you have pointed out, you haven't "kept up with upgrades" sic. So they
clearly aren't essential. So maybe it was "wrong" for the punters to feel
they should buy "upgrades" having been presented with the dream of
'nirvana' arriving by FedEx, or via a visit from a dealer to twang their
elastic bands.

Maybe it was "wrong" to spend years pushing the idea that CD was
*inherently* flawed and unlistenable - until Linn made a CD player, and
eventually discs as well. Curious given that their CDs that I've heard do
sound excellent to me.

Maybe it was "wrong" the way a 'flock' of dealers and writers managed to
establish a faith-system that anything that didn't sound the same as the
magic combination must be inferior. And even dismiss things like stereo
imaging when the speakers they made at the time were poor at providing a
stereo image.

To me, it does seem from outside like a spectacularly successful example of
the old marketing/management maxim, "Baloney Baffles Brains", or in modern
terms, "Any old ******** will do".

In itself it doesn't seem odd or to be criticised that a design be made and
sold for many years. The Technics DDs are another example of that. Works
well, made for many years. No stream of audiophile add-on 'upgrades'
though, so far as I know.

And FWIW a lot of the equipment I use is decades old and still works fine.

So was it "wrong"? For Linn, I guess not. But for the rest of UK audio and
many audio enthusiasts... ? Fill in your own answers to that.


Leaving aside for the moment the acoustic value of the changes, it
is nice to feel that you can keep your purchase up to date.

That phrasing implies that being "up to date" may mean more than a
datestamp on a package label. :-)

As regards "still trying to fix the laws", again, what is wrong with
that? It's not perfect, nothing mechanical in the audio world ever is.

That's perhaps why most makers of mechanical devices tend to routinely do
new designs with new materials, techniques, etc. But I'd agree that a TT
for an LP is essentially an 'old fashioned task', so new ideas, etc, might
not be needed. But if so, I wonder why a flow of 'upgrades' would be if the
design was the best in the first place...

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message


Baring in mind they are of a similar basic design and
that the Linn has had nearly 40 years of
tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for
sure that Linn properly identified and addressed them.

The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow /
magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

I have not kept up with upgrades and have not purchased
anything for my Linn except replacement lid hinges in
what must be 25 years. The last thing I got was a bonded
sub chassis which replaced the welded one. But I do know
there have been at least two electronic speed/ motor
controllers and a new base board with vibration absorbing
feet and most probably a host of other things.

Sounds to me like the origional design was defective or at best suboptimal
compared to prior art. None of those things represent technology that was
not well-known when the TD125 was first produced. If memory serves, both the
AR turntable and the TD125 had robust die cast sub-chassis which would be
the way to go.

Welded up = minimal tooling costs.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

In your last post you appeared to looking very hard to find things to
attack and then putting the worst possible interpretation on each point.

Then we get "twang their elastic bands".

I think you've been watching too much 'Strictly' and it has made spiteful
bitching acceptable to you. Your hatred of Linn is an order of magnitude
greater than my liking for the the LP12 ever was.

You are still attacking me rather than dealing with the points I made about
the LP12. Also you do seem to be slipping into 'mindreading' with your
assertions about my 'hatred' sic of Linn.

FWIW I think that IT was a very successful businessman who did a good job
of building a manufacturing firm and bringing jobs to his local area. Good
on him for that. Not been easy in recent decades to make a success of
manufacturing in the UK. And I think various of their other products are
fine. Also happy to buy their CDs. Even recommend their internet 320k radio
streams for anyone who is interested. Sorry if all that clashes with your
belief that I 'hate' Linn.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:

Sounds to me like the origional design was defective or
at best suboptimal compared to prior art. None of those
things represent technology that was not well-known when
the TD125 was first produced. If memory serves, both the
AR turntable and the TD125 had robust die cast
sub-chassis which would be the way to go.

Welded up = minimal tooling costs.

Yes of course, whatever you say, not biased at all are
you.

Of course I'm biased, but I'm also experienced and whatever I say, I know
someone well who will lovingly inform me even more about it at much as I can
stand. Detroit is a manufacturing town, has been for over a century, and
still is.

If you find the idea that welded-up assemblies are in this case a cheap
approximation to be controversial, then you are too far gone into the land
of Linn nirvana to bother with.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

In your last post you appeared to looking very hard to find things to
attack and then putting the worst possible interpretation on each point.

Then we get "twang their elastic bands".

I think you've been watching too much 'Strictly' and it has made spiteful
bitching acceptable to you. Your hatred of Linn is an order of magnitude
greater than my liking for the the LP12 ever was.



I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd that
'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that particular
product line...??

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd that
'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that particular
product line...??

Fans are rarely "ferocious"!

But I remember when the Linn turntable first came out the adulation from
certain quarters was bizarrely over the top. It seems to me that the OTT
praise of the Linn, always phrased in entirely subjective terms opened the
flood gates for the "subjectivist" school of HiFi reviewing, in which
objective facts were dismissed as irrelevant, whilst the reviewers personal
opinion, expressed in purely subjective terms and often displaying real
technical ignorance, was elevated to the status of "holy writ". I stopped
buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing style, so I can
probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot of money over the
years.

If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no bad
thing IMO.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:

I stopped buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing
style, so I can probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot
of money over the years.

I thought for a second you'd left the "f" out of "shift" there... ;-

If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no
bad thing IMO.

Well, I didn't really criticise the LP12 in terms of being able to rotate
an LP. So far as that was concened the audible problems I recall seemed to
be due to the asak cartridge. Not the actual TT or arm. Although I guess it
was the case back then that this was part of the 'magic system' that many
UK writers and dealers regarded as if on a plane above all else.

What seemed odd to me was that despite the claims about it being so good,
that bits tended to drop off, it apparently needed 'adjusting' every now
and then, and there has been a stream of 'upgrades'. Yet other equipment
like the Technics (to drag this back on-topic) didn't seem to require all
the fuss and added costs later on.

If I have any real criticisms they are of the 'flock' of flat-earth dealers
and writers who dismissed many alternatives. And in the process may have
lost us a number of good designs and makers that may have better and
cheaper so far as many end-users were concerned - if they'd had a chance to
listen to them on a more open-minded basis.

I can understand the dealers though if what various of them have told me
was true. A 40 percent markup on a product that people come in *expecting*
to buy because of what they'd read from 'experts', plus having an area
quasi-monopoly must have seemed a good business. Why kick the sacred cow
that gives you milk? Just sell the milk the customers come in ask for. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ...

...by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm
And Timing, of course. ;-

I thought the band did that...

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ...
...by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm And Timing, of
course. ;-

I thought the band did that...



Hi Wally - long time no see! :-)

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd
that 'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that
particular product line...??

Fans are rarely "ferocious"!

But I remember when the Linn turntable first came out the adulation from
certain quarters was bizarrely over the top.



OK, I wasn't particularly into 'audio' those days and although I had hifi
kit and played a lot of records I never bought hifi magazines, so I didn't
get to see the 'early Linn'...!!


It seems to me that the OTT
praise of the Linn, always phrased in entirely subjective terms opened the
flood gates for the "subjectivist" school of HiFi reviewing, in which
objective facts were dismissed as irrelevant, whilst the reviewers
personal opinion, expressed in purely subjective terms and often
displaying real technical ignorance, was elevated to the status of "holy
writ". I stopped buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing
style, so I can probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot of
money over the years.


I share your view entirely and realised that I could get a lot of really
nice charity shop vinyl for the price of a mag (last 5 years or so) which
was full of meaningless 'purple prose' from a few 'journos' using the
buzzwords/phrases of the day to describe their own experiences with kit I'll
never see, let alone hear.

This'll make you laff: I sold an unusual record player to someone a year or
so ago and he came to collect it all in a hurry (long journey). He spotted
my World Audio Design valve amp and phono stages and said 'Oh, do you read
HFW?' I said 'No, I gave those up as a waste of time and money some time
ago!' (or words to that effect). Turns out he was/still is one of the
editorial team and regular contributor to HFW!!

Oops! :-)



If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no bad
thing IMO.


Sure, but a few go way beyond 'criticism' when it comes to Linn and Bose
products - as well as with the better known snake oil merchants that are
frequently mentioned here!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

Sure, but a few go way beyond 'criticism' when it comes to Linn and Bose
products - as well as with the better known snake oil merchants that are
frequently mentioned here!


Well I guess that products that acquire the lavish praise that Linn and Bose
have received will tens to attract "lavish" criticism as well.

In the case here Jim has made his view of the Linn turntable very clear, but
his criticisms were specific, he didn't merely dismiss the Linn as
"rubbish". And it seems to me that Bob's reaction to Jim's criticism was at
least as "ferocious" as Jim's criticism had been.

For myself I have no feelings about the Linn either way. I've no experience
of the actual turntable, only of the bizarrely OTT praise of it that brought
my buying of HiFi mags to an end. From the actual descriptions of it that I
saw (as distinct from the far more common "purple prose") it appeared to be
very little different from my Thorens TD150, so I could see no reason why it
should sound any better. These days I use a Luxman DD turntable. It claims
to be an "ultimate HiFi component", so it must be better than any other
turntable, mustn't it? :-)

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote

Perhaps they decided that all R&D improvements would only be on next years
model and people who purchased this year's, would go without.


Have there been any improvements in turntable design over the last 30 years?
It seems to me that current models are all firmly based on designs available
in the 1970s. All three of the currently available drive arrangements:
idler-wheel drive, belt drive and direct drive date from the 1970s or
before, electronic speed control was introduced in the 1970s. Modern
turntables work no better than those of the 1970s, nor has the LP changed in
that time.

So if the turntable manufacturers *are* doing R&D it can only be in terms of
manufacturing methods aimed at reducing production costs.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:
Jim you go on about others making mountains out of mole hills.

That can be made to seem so when you cherry-pick some of my comments out
of their contexts, then present them with your own 'spin'. :-)

I think your criticisms above are either nit picking or exaggerated out
of all proportion just because you didn't like it, the marketing and
publication issues surrounding the LP12.

Alas, you still seem to keep missing all the statements I have made that
don't suit your belief that I am being excessively critical or 'hate' Linn.

I've tried explaining a few times. So I guess I should now assume that
trying again to get you to understand this would be a waste of time. Happy
to leave any other readers to draw their own conclusions.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

My words were directed at no particular individuals although the recent
exchanges do seem to have demonstrated what I was saying. There has always
been a bit of a 'lynch mob' in this ng when it comes to certain
manufacturers and products.

Has there?, can't say I've noticed it. Certainly people often do have strong
views for and against particular products, systems and techniques. But
everyone writes as an individual, I see no evidence of a "mob". What is this
ng for if not to discuss these matters? and discussion will inevitably bring
out differences of opinion. I see no merit in crying "unfair" when something
you happen to like gets criticised.

My own view is that, provided no-one goes hungry, let them spend what they
will on whatever takes their fancy. It is worth noting that a pair of
'thousand dollar' interconnects on eBay that were pointed to recently
still made over two hundred and fifty quid!

Absolutely. If someone wants to waste a lot of money on snake-oil products
that's their perogative. But it's also my perogative to say that I think
them foolish for so doing.


These days I use a Luxman DD turntable. It claims
to be an "ultimate HiFi component", so it must be better than any other
turntable, mustn't it? :-)


Of course! :-)

I like Luxman stuff and had an amp and a tuner a while back when I was
going through various kit. Interesting that our local 'high end' designer
and manufacturer, Tim De Paravicini, started out in audio designing for
Luxman....


I only have it because I was able to buy it second hand for a pittance. But
I like it, there's plenty of torque in the motor so it runs up to speed
quite fast despite the heavy platter, the plinth and cover are big enough
that there's no need for a cut-out in the cover to allow the stylus to reach
the centre of the record with hitting it, the cover has proper hinges, not a
slot in the back and the speed change is electronic, not by a fork moving
the belt from one pulley to another as was the case with the Thorens
(accompanied by several seconds of 'orrible noises as the belt rubbed
against the fork). I can't say I've noticed any particular change in sound
quality between it and the Thorens, but then I don't play vinyl much these
days, it's too much hassle.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Bob Latham" wrote

Perhaps they decided that all R&D improvements would
only be on next years model and people who purchased
this year's, would go without.

Have there been any improvements in turntable design over
the last 30 years? It seems to me that current models are
all firmly based on designs available in the 1970s. All
three of the currently available drive arrangements:
idler-wheel drive, belt drive and direct drive date from
the 1970s or before, electronic speed control was
introduced in the 1970s. Modern turntables work no better
than those of the 1970s, nor has the LP changed in that
time.

The Thorens TD125 had electronic speed control and was introduced in 1968. I
bought one in 1969 and it had been out for a while.

If memory serves there was even a turntable in the 1950s with a tubed
electronic speed control unit. The name Rek-o-Kut comes to mind, but I'm
fuzzy about the details. I know that Rek-O-Kut had turntables with
mechanical speed control.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote

Perhaps they decided that all R&D improvements would
only be on next years model and people who purchased
this year's, would go without.


Have there been any improvements in turntable design
over the last 30 years?

In your opinion obviously.

If there had been a signficiant improvement in turntable design or even the
whole area of vinyl cutting and playback, then you could cite me the
corresponding scholarly paper. I track such things, and if memory serves,
the last one was dated in the late 60s or early 70s.

not but I'd expect you to say
the same about CD players and amplifiers.

They've both made dramatic improvements in things like size, weight, cost,
maximum power (amplfiiers) and reliability.

It seems to me that current models are all firmly based
on designs available in the 1970s. All three of the
currently available drive arrangements: idler-wheel
drive, belt drive and direct drive date from the 1970s
or before, electronic speed control was introduced in
the 1970s.

No problem with any of that.

Modern turntables work no better than those of the 1970s,

You know this how?

Absence of evidence.

Measured them all?

Done my share. `

Listened to them all?

Done my share.

Or is it just bigotry?

Bigotry is the only explanation for the ongoing claims of any generalized
sonic superiority of vinyl over good digital.


You've made your mind up that
everything sounds the same from a certain point in time
unless there is something wrong with it.

The only reason why everything didn't always sound the same was that back in
those days, there were so many things wrong with it.

So why do you have any interest left in Audio then?

For me, its all about how good things sound when you do everything right.

Its done and dusted, end of.


I don't need the promise of pie in the sky on the other side of the rainbow
to get me started in the morning.

I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can
say I prefer the sound of one item over another and in
that context I preferred my Linn to other TTs at the time
and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer sounding
than CD.

I heard people's deified Linns many times and it wasn't the second coming.

nor has the LP changed in that time.

So if the turntable manufacturers *are* doing R&D it can
only be in terms of manufacturing methods aimed at
reducing production costs.

According to your "everything is the same unless faulty"
logic indeed yes.


Prove that there is anything actually something logically wrong with the
idea that "everything is the same unless faulty"

Like Jim you are choosing to take a very extreme view

Actually, their/our viewpoint is not extreme. Many people have gotten off
the "everthing sounds different" bandwagon.

and the only value that I can see in that is to provoke
people so I'm now out of this conversation.

Yup, take your ball and bat and go home. How cordial and mature of you! ;-)

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote

Perhaps they decided that all R&D improvements would only be on next
years
model and people who purchased this year's, would go without.


Have there been any improvements in turntable design over the last 30
years?

In your opinion obviously not but I'd expect you to say the same about CD
players and amplifiers.

As far as ordinary audio power amplifiers go, no I don't think there has
been significant improvement in performance over the last 30 years. I still
use a 30 year-old Quad 405 and can think of no good reason to replace it. CD
players are a different matter as 30 years ago they hadn't appeared on the
market. However if we make that 20 years then again I'd be surprised if
there was much improvement in performance. Cost is another matter, both CD
players and amplifiers are available at much lower real prices than they
were then (the audiophile status-symbol products excepted).

It seems to me that current models are all firmly based on designs
available in the 1970s. All three of the currently available drive
arrangements: idler-wheel drive, belt drive and direct drive date from
the 1970s or before, electronic speed control was introduced in the
1970s.

No problem with any of that.

Modern turntables work no better than those of the 1970s,

You know this how? Measured them all? Listened to them all?

Based on the fact that there has been next to no changes to the design or
operating principles of these products. Based on the fact that all three are
operating at a limit of performance set by the basic fundamentals of these
operating principles. Based on the fact that, to the best of my knowledge,
nobody has conducted a properly designed subjective listening test that
demonstrates that improvments have been made.

Or is it just
bigotry?

My opinion is "bigotry" and yours is - what exactly? Sorry Bob but my
opinions and yours are both *opinions*. If you want to call mine "bigotry"
then you will have to accept the term yourself.

You've made your mind up that everything sounds the same from a
certain point in time unless there is something wrong with it. So why do
you have any interest left in Audio then? Its done and dusted, end of.

Why do you assume that audio is limited to vinyl, CDs and amplifiers? Or
that good old-fashioned two-channel stereo is the be-all and end-all of
HiFi? There's a whole word of possible (and potentially dramatic)
improvements to be had from multi-channel audio and new ways of coding audio
to create an immersive sound. ISTM that the world of HiFi has got stuck in a
rut just fiddling with tiny changes to well-established designs of hardware
but without addressing the big issues of how to create convincing sound
fields in listening rooms. There are multi-channel systems, SACD and
DVD-audio, but these have largely failed to make it commercially. The only
sort of surround sound to have any real commercial success is the 5.1 or 7.1
movie sound track, and those are more about putting sound effects behind the
audience's heads than creating a convincing immersive sound field.

I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your preference.

nor has the LP changed in that time.

So if the turntable manufacturers *are* doing R&D it can only be in
terms of manufacturing methods aimed at reducing production costs.

According to your "everything is the same unless faulty" logic indeed yes.

Like Jim you are choosing to take a very extreme view and the only value
that I can see in that is to provoke people so I'm now out of this
conversation.

"Extreme"? really? Sorry but I can't see how my view is "extreme" when it is
one shared by a good many people, many professionally involved in audio.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

My words were directed at no particular individuals although the recent
exchanges do seem to have demonstrated what I was saying. There has
always been a bit of a 'lynch mob' in this ng when it comes to certain
manufacturers and products.

Has there?, can't say I've noticed it.


Have you not? The occasional 'snake oil chestnuts' that are dropped in here
from time to time usually bring a predictable response from the same gaggle
of familiar names.


Certainly people often do have strong
views for and against particular products, systems and techniques. But
everyone writes as an individual, I see no evidence of a "mob". What is
this ng for if not to discuss these matters? and discussion will
inevitably bring out differences of opinion. I see no merit in crying
"unfair" when something you happen to like gets criticised.


Neither do I, but critics are not immune from criticism themselves.



My own view is that, provided no-one goes hungry, let them spend what
they will on whatever takes their fancy. It is worth noting that a pair
of 'thousand dollar' interconnects on eBay that were pointed to recently
still made over two hundred and fifty quid!

Absolutely. If someone wants to waste a lot of money on snake-oil products
that's their perogative. But it's also my perogative to say that I think
them foolish for so doing.


If you think it's worth the bother - the one person who will always think a
ridiculously expensive 'upgrade' is worth the money is the person who's
bought it!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

My words were directed at no particular individuals although the recent
exchanges do seem to have demonstrated what I was saying. There has
always been a bit of a 'lynch mob' in this ng when it comes to certain
manufacturers and products.

Has there?, can't say I've noticed it.


Have you not? The occasional 'snake oil chestnuts' that are dropped in
here from time to time usually bring a predictable response from the same
gaggle of familiar names.


Well, if you equate "a predictable response from the same gaggle of familiar
names" with being a lynch mob. To me the term "lynch mob" implies a group
conspiring to destroy their victim, and I haven't seen that, or anything
close, here.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

My words were directed at no particular individuals although the recent
exchanges do seem to have demonstrated what I was saying. There has
always been a bit of a 'lynch mob' in this ng when it comes to certain
manufacturers and products.

Has there?, can't say I've noticed it.


Have you not? The occasional 'snake oil chestnuts' that are dropped in
here from time to time usually bring a predictable response from the same
gaggle of familiar names.


Well, if you equate "a predictable response from the same gaggle of
familiar names" with being a lynch mob. To me the term "lynch mob" implies
a group conspiring to destroy their victim, and I haven't seen that, or
anything close, here.


You are being a little *literal* here - in this context the 'lynch mob'
seeks only to destroy the victim's reputation and/or possibly their future
trading prospects.

I have made my own views clear, but I always think there's more than a
little hint of jealousy involved when the 'snake oil squealers' see how
easily their 'target' can shake silly big money out of minted idiots'
pockets!

Same thing with Bill Gates - even my sister in law's American husband hates
him and to my knowledge they've never met!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote

Perhaps they decided that all R&D improvements would only be on next
years model and people who purchased this year's, would go without.


Have there been any improvements in turntable design over the last 30
years?

In your opinion obviously.

If there had been a signficiant improvement in turntable design or even
the whole area of vinyl cutting and playback, then you could cite me
the corresponding scholarly paper. I track such things, and if memory
serves, the last one was dated in the late 60s or early 70s.

My (imperfect) recollection is that there was a flurry of research and
papers around the time the industry thought 'quadrophonic' LPs would
replace stereo and some makers used systems requiring an ultrasonic
subcarrier. But I haven't checked to see if much more has appeared later.


Like Jim you are choosing to take a very extreme view

Actually, their/our viewpoint is not extreme. Many people have gotten
off the "everthing sounds different" bandwagon.

I remain puzzled and amused by the belief that what I wrote was a "very
extreme view".

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html